Beatles - Not Even Close To The Best Group Ever.

Before the Beatles started making records and writing songs, they built their reputation as the best live act outside of London. Their concert at Litherland Town Hall on December 27, 1960 is legendary as the turning point when they went from being also-rans to the best band on the scene, in the space of half an hour. It was their first big hometown gig after four months of playing to drunks in Hamburg dive bars, and Liverpool audiences had never seen anything like it. Bob Wooler, the DJ who MC’ed the evening, described it:

It’s true that their musicianship declined as they became more famous (John Lennon famously told one of their opening acts, “Don’t listen to us; we’re terrible these days”), and this has been seized upon by some of their rivals as evidence that the Beatles were never a good live band. Don’t you believe it. They never would have got out of Liverpool if that were true, and we wouldn’t all be having this debate.

By all accounts, Madonna does (or did) great live performances, extremely well rehearsed and choreographed. Does that make her better than the Beatles?

Assessing the Beatles’ worth by judging their '64 and later live performances - when they couldn’t even hear themselves, let alone hear each other - is kind of like asking Beethoven to perform his 9th symphony after he’d gone deaf, then finding fault with the composition.

The Beatles’ reputation is based on their creativity, not their live performances.

I came to Pet Sounds late, meaning that it was a set of wildly different experiences for the tracks: Each side had an instrumental, a song I was completely sick of, a song I liked/loved and was aware of already, and then three songs in the middle to discover, only one of which stands up to the best of Brian Wilson’s work, to my ears. I like 20/20, friends, Holland, surfs up, as much. I don’t think it’s even fair to expect one guy with issues to produce material like the Beatles and he really didn’t. It’s over the course of the 60s and many songs that you can see his arc.

Saying it has coherence because it’s about broken hearts among Beach Boys is a stretch to me. That’s what half the catalog was about.

I think Sgt Pepper gets too much flack for not “hanging together” enough by poetasters and lazy critics. The public has spoken anyway. I think it hangs together on an unconscious level that I haven’t heard many people give credit for.

I don’t know about thematic coherence and, I confess, I don’t delve deeply into lyrical content for 95% of the music I listen to. Sonically, though, it was coherent–feels like one large work with many movements to me (same way as I feel about my other favorite rock album of all time, “Loveless.”)

The Beatles probably used fewer session musicians than any other band of its day. Every Beatles session has been detailed down to the last note. George Martin often stepped in on harpsichord and various other instruments. Billy Preston played piano a bit in the Let It Be sessions. Eric Clapton played guitar on “While My Guitar Gently Weeps.” For the most part, though, other musicians would have loved to be part of a Beatles recording but never got the chance. Nicky Hopkins, e.g., contributed some eternally famous piano to Rolling Stones, Kinks, and Who albums but all he got with the Beatles is one overdub on the fast version of “Revolution.”

The Pet Sounds album, in case you don’t know, was done almost entirely with session musicians while the rest of the Beach Boys were on the road. Brian conducted the sessions, lasting hundreds of hours, swapping Wrecking Crew musicians in and out to get the precise sounds he wanted. The band came in at the end and recorded vocals, while largely hating everything on it. See the movie Love and Mercy for a recreation of these sessions and the travail surrounding them.

BTW, “Good Vibrations” was initially part of the album but Brain held it out so he could spent six more months tinkering with it with studio production tricks.

I think Good Vibrations was for the Smile project.

And of course this means that the instrumentals had no audible Beach boys participation at all. From what I recall they’re not the greatest instros ever.

Nope, “Good Vibrations” was definitely begun during the sessions for Pet Sounds.

I think the only Beach Boy to play an instrument on Pet Sounds was Carl, who played a little electric 12-string.

Now THAT is a horror movie premise!

Naah, that’s just limbo for the world in which Bon Jovi is the hottest band ever.

“Hey, who are those three guys with Paul McCartney?”

[/Saved By The Bell]

Wait. You mean that Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?

He was in Wings? Ok, that blows my post. I was going to say that Wings was obviously influenced by Paul McCartney.

In the realm of live performance, I’m totally willing to give the Beatles a pass. They were by all reports a very good bar band by the time they left Hamburg. By the time they were trying to be much beyond a bar band, the tech wasn’t adequate to deal with the crowds. I can vouch that any loud show without stage monitors is a crapshoot; could be great, could be bad. Sage monitors were still a few years away when the Beatles tried their big shows, and in-ear monitors were sci-fi. If the tech would have been there, they could have even done a decent facsimile of their late album work. Why not, they’d played it before? They would have needed the incentive to work with each other enough, though. By the time they were really experimenting, they were fracturing enough that long practices were probably out of the question.

In the realm of studio trickery, the Beatles may have popularized the techniques for that generation, but I’m having a hard time thinking of techniques they used that weren’t already done by a predecessor. Les Paul has a better claim to 90% of it himself, and he was pretty popular. You can claim that it was the first time that such techniques were first coupled with good songwriting by the Beatles, but it seems to me that they didn’t do a lot that isn’t covered by Waiting for the Sunrise and Lover. They have multi-tracking by the same artist (in fact, it’s some of the earliest multi-tracking), speed alteration, and quite good songwriting/arranging. When the Beatles were extending the studio tricks of others, it was sometimes just because they new Martin could “fix it”. The one exception of this I can think of is “Tomorrow Never Knows”, I can’t think of a song structured around tape loops that preceded it. So, props to the Beatles there.

Now, as to whether they were a “boy band”? Oh yes, they were. Live up to it, love it. You love an early boy band and their vapid songs, and so do I. Get it out there. Work that tension out of those shoulders and your neck. Boy Band doesn’t mean that it’s not well done, and it doesn’t mean that the members are forever limited to that. That they developed beyond that has already been detailed in the thread. Their boy band status and success was what allowed them to popularize their experiments. If they hadn’t had success with obvious boy band pablum such as “She Loves You”, et al, they wouldn’t have been popularizing anything when they went experimental. They’d have had as tough a row to hoe, and have been as obscure as another great band that followed them on the Hamburg scene, The Monks. The Monks started without the “boy band” foundation, so they had a hard time getting heard, but they had to pull off their live performances as a result. In a world of an amazing live band vs. a band with million selling hits, guess which one is going to be easier to make popular?

So, yes, a band that was plentiful amounts of good, able to pivot when they needed to, and were lucky to pivot the right way and capitalize on their previous successes. So, very popular. Best of the best? Nah, it would be too easy of an answer, even if it were possible to prove it true. I’d even argue that holding the idea that they could be provably the best would result in stagnation in current musicians, anyway. There’s been plenty done since their demise that they couldn’t have anticipated, and their output after the band’s passing is mixed, at best.

If I can lay a semi-novel complaint against believing the Beatles were the best ever, it’s similar to rooting for General Motors. Sure they popularized things, they were the biggest band on the planet before they started experimenting beyond blending rock sensibilities with traditional pop, which isn’t especially groundbreaking, but they were the cute guys who were successful at it for the period. But to attempt to freeze things at that period before 1970, and say “yep, best” because of a lot of entirely debatable points makes you look like the people who claimed that Buddy Holly was still living forever somehow, or that Elvis is still the King.
On preview: YAY! Wall o’ text. No TL; DR this time. And, John Mace: when I was in high school decades ago, I heard a girl utter those words completely without irony.

McCartney wears Always with Wings?

Heh. You know Badfinger’s hit “Come And Get It”, right? The one that was obviously penned by Paul McCartney? It doesn’t really mean anything specific, but sounds like generic huckstering by a street-corner peddler? If you want it, here it is; come and get it – but you better hurry, 'cos it’s going fast. Yeah, you know the one.

I always gave him a pass on the bit where he’s all, what, you think there must be a catch? Will you walk away from a fool and his money? Because, honestly, who says that? Suddenly he’s less a generic huckster who could be peddling anything – it could be a sex thing, whatever – and more specifically trying to give you money?

Well, maybe I was just being overly literal. So I let it go.

But it now dawned on me that McCartney did the demo version for Badfinger. Which means – look, just picture him, cheerfully explaining that he’s got another group coming in after lunch, but he sure wants to produce you a guaranteed hit if you’ll just sign here and let him make you rich; what an opportunity!

And now picture him pointedly staring straight at you and not breaking eye contact as he starts in with the song: you want it? Here it is; come and get it. Make your mind up fast. Wait, you think there’s a catch? What catch? Are you going to walk away from all this money? Better hurry; it’s going fast.

You got to help me here. My mind won’t stretch far enough to think of any way the Beatles could be described as a boy band. What are you thinking of?

McCartney wrote the song for the soundtrack of The Magic Christian, a movie made from Terry Southern’s book. It’s an exact encapsulation of the book. Not very mysterious.

As I tried to point out upthread, the term “boy band” is misleading, firstly because “bands” themselves were rare when the Beatles came up. Most male rock and roll acts were billed as solo artists, and no one buying their records cared about who else played on the songs. More importantly, all rock and roll music was packaged and sold to teenagers, and was considered nothing but disposable product designed to trade on sex appeal. You were either a teen idol (marketed to girls) or a girl group (marketed to boys and girls). We only know the term “boy band” because the Beatles established a model for something else: the rock group, an autonomous group of self-sufficient writer/performers.

Also, it bears repeating that, while part of the Beatles’ initial appeal undoubtedly stemmed from their looks as well as the overall innocence of their music, terms like “boy band” call to mind interchangeable personalities brought together by an impresario to appeal to a wide audience. The Beatles, of course, came together of their own volition, and while Brian Epstein made some crucial contributions to shaping their image, he in no way “created” the Beatles, and never claimed to.

While it’s not the definitive reference, Wikipedia gives this definition of what a boy band is:

Note the part I bolded. That, as well as other factors (such as that their audience was always far broader than just young females), mean that The Beatles were never an example of what many people mean by the term “boy band,” even though they were a band and they were boys.

The Byrds. I’m not sure how I’d rank Gene Clark, David Crosby, Chris Hillman and Roger McGuinn, but they all contributed great songs to the band and did fantastic work afterwards.

Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young obviously.

Actually I think the answer is David Crosby…

That’s a bit of a cheat; it’s basically a supergroup built from the remains of the Byrds, the Hollies and Buffalo Springfield.