# Beatles songs showing Tin Pan Alley influences **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932 "2018-01-19T00:23:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/1 "2018-01-19T00:23:03Z")
I was talking with a friend recently who has long heard my praise of the Beatles’ music, and was asking me questions. This led to a discussion of Lennon and McCartney’s early songwriting influences. Their main ones were rock and roll and rhythm and blues, with a little country (e.g., “I Don’t Want to Spoil the Party”). But Lennon and McCartney were also influenced significantly by American composers like Gershwin, Arlen, Porter, Ellington, etc. - ‘The Great American Songbook’. My friend - who isn’t very familiar with the Beatles’ music -was surprised to hear this, and asked me for examples. Off the top of my head, I thought of “Yesterday”, and “Ask Me Why”. What are some others? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/2 "2018-01-19T00:29:36Z")
I think they were significantly more influenced by traditional British music hall songs, brass band music and skiffle, than the American songbook. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/3 "2018-01-19T00:31:27Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I think they were significantly more influenced by traditional British music hall songs, brass band music and skiffle, than the American songbook. I agree. But one point in the OP’s favor, perhaps, is that they covered “Till There Was You,” from the very American musical _The Music Man_. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/4 "2018-01-19T00:36:59Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I think they were significantly more influenced by traditional British music hall songs, brass band music and skiffle, than the American songbook. True. But I’m looking for examples of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/5 "2018-01-19T00:52:01Z")
“When I’m 64” seems to have a throwback feel. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/6 "2018-01-19T00:53:24Z")
Paul’s ballads always seem like tin pan alley songs to me. Kinda sugary and sweet. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/7 "2018-01-19T01:03:30Z")
“Strawberry Fields Forever” seems to alternate between psychadelia on the chorus and Tin Pan Alley on the verses (e.g. _It’s getting hard to be someone / But it all works out / It doesn’t matter much to me_). “A Little Help From My Friends” has a deliberate, jaunty beat that comes straight from the 1890s – easier to keep time so that Ringo was relatively freed up for the vocals. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/8 "2018-01-19T01:08:26Z")
“Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da” “Honey Pie” had a real 1920s tin pan alley vibe. “Your Mother Should Know.” You could also include "Martha My Dear. ---
**Author:** ![Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Backwater_Under_Duck)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/9 "2018-01-19T02:36:51Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > “Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da” > “Honey Pie” had a real 1920s tin pan alley vibe. > “Your Mother Should Know.” > You could also include "Martha My Dear. I can totally see Laurence Olivier singing all of those songs in _The Entertainer_, John Osborne’s study of a dried-up music hall comedian. You know Pauly wrote _When I’m 64_ when he was like twelve years old. No tin pan alley. Nothing but music hall influence. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/10 "2018-01-19T02:43:25Z")
George’s “You Like Me Too Much,” perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/11 "2018-01-19T16:22:21Z")
IIRC Paul’s dad played in the British music halls. That had a big influence on Paul’s interest in that older style. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/12 "2018-01-19T16:27:22Z")
> [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](#): > > I can totally see Laurence Olivier singing all of those songs in _The Entertainer_, John Osborne’s study of a dried-up music hall comedian. You know Pauly wrote _When I’m 64_ when he was like twelve years old. No tin pan alley. Nothing but music hall influence. There’s not all that much difference between the two. The songs also could have been performed on the Vaudeville stage in the US. “Your Mother Should Know” clearly is part of that, and the others are in that tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/13 "2018-01-19T16:43:07Z")
_Her Majesty._ I’d say more about it, but the song is only 23 seconds. Seriously, the difference between British Music Hall and American Tin Pan Alley is pretty slim. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/14 "2018-01-19T17:04:46Z")
How about _Lady Madonna_? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/15 "2018-01-20T01:04:27Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > _Her Majesty._ > > I’d say more about it, but the song is only 23 seconds. > > Seriously, the difference between British Music Hall and American Tin Pan Alley is pretty slim. This. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/16 "2018-01-20T02:02:51Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > How about _Lady Madonna_? That’s Fats Domino. New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/17 "2018-01-20T06:18:57Z")
A geat post band example would be “You Gave Me The Answer” from venus and mars, in 1975. It’s like a sequel to Honey Pie. Paul knew and loved all that stuff. Actually I think it’s harder to point out what beatles songs you couldnt make work in a music hall setting. It wasn’t just the chords that distingished the tunes. They didn’t need to be in a club or concert environment, or a rock show to sound like music. They embodied the spirit of music. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/18 "2018-01-20T19:18:12Z")
There’s extremely varied styles in Tin Pan Alley. This is not surprising since it went from 1885 to the 1960’s. There was melodrama and comedy (the minstrel shows of the late 19th century), to the sophistication of The Great American Songbook, to the new TPA centered in the Brill building and 1650 Broadway which churned out hits from the late 50’s for about 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/19 "2018-01-21T00:53:51Z")
[![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jdlnIYiCr8g/hqdefault.jpg "The Beatles - Honey Pie (demo)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdlnIYiCr8g) This is the demo of honey pie. It rocks. Mainly because it sounds like someone banging on a box thoughout. I love it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/20 "2018-01-21T01:02:21Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > That’s Fats Domino. New Orleans. The more immediate influence would be [Bad Penny Blues](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5odaPQ0eVo) by Humphrey Lyttleton in 1956, but that, in turn, was certainly influenced by New Orleans piano, perhaps Fats Domino specifically. (I’m not sure I could narrow it exactly to him, but it’s New Orleans for sure. I do believe McCartney did cite him as an influence, though.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932.md?page=2)