# Beatles songs showing Tin Pan Alley influences **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 19, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932 "2018-01-19T00:23:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/21 "2018-01-21T01:32:32Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The more immediate influence would be [Bad Penny Blues](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5odaPQ0eVo) by Humphrey Lyttleton in 1956, but that, in turn, was certainly influenced by New Orleans piano, perhaps Fats Domino specifically. (I’m not sure I could narrow it exactly to him, but it’s New Orleans for sure. I do believe McCartney did cite him as an influence, though.) Well, Fats Domino did a hit cover of “Lady Madonna,” and the Beatles were delighted with it. I can’t provide a cite, but Paul supposedly said the song was an attempt at making the kind of single Fats and Dave Bartholomew specialized in. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/22 "2018-01-22T15:11:51Z")
An early, pre-Sullivan Show Beatles recording was a cover of “The Sheik of Araby.” One of John’s post-Beatles songs, “Nobody Loves You (When You’re Down and Out” (from **Walls and Bridges** ), was a conscious emulation of Frank Sinatra. And Ringo’s whole first solo album, **Sentimental Journey** , was mostly (if not entirely) American Songbook chestnuts. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/23 "2018-01-22T15:25:55Z")
“P.S. I Love You” would have felt very much at home in the Brill Building. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/24 "2018-01-22T17:09:30Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Well, Fats Domino did a hit cover of “Lady Madonna,” and the Beatles were delighted with it. I can’t provide a cite, but Paul supposedly said the song was an attempt at making the kind of single Fats and Dave Bartholomew specialized in. Oh, I’ve heard something similar, so I’m fine without a cite. It’s just that the immediate influence seems most likely to me to be that song,especially as it was the first top 20 jazz hit in the UK, so it was in popular culture. But, sure, there’s definitely New Orleans/Fats Domino in there, either way. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/25 "2018-01-22T18:46:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, I’ve heard something similar, so I’m fine without a cite. It’s just that the immediate influence seems most likely to me to be that song,especially as it was the first top 20 jazz hit in the UK, so it was in popular culture. But, sure, there’s definitely New Orleans/Fats Domino in there, either way. Bad Penny was the source material on that, and Fats was inspired or persuaded to do two beatles songs around that time, Lovely Rita and Lady Madonna, because he was fats, and a pervasive inspiration for them. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/26 "2018-01-22T18:49:23Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > “P.S. I Love You” would have felt very much at home in the Brill Building. Brill building and tin pan alley are more disinct than that. Brill era was Carole King, sedaka, etc. They were what Lennon mccartney were aiming for anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/27 "2018-01-23T12:08:33Z")
“Goodnight” Everybody forgets that one. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/28 "2018-01-23T19:11:06Z")
Johanna - good one. I could see “Goodnight” working well in a Rogers and Hammerstein musical. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/29 "2018-01-24T01:21:57Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > “Goodnight” > > Everybody forgets that one. Ditto. I think “Goodnight” starts off beautifully, but doesn’t hold up. (Some - _not me!_ - say it’s because Ringo started singing). FWIW, when I first heard “My Heart Will Go On”, I thought that was what the melody of “Goodnight” was trying for. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/30 "2018-01-25T04:32:11Z")
There’s “The Long and Winding Road,” “You Never Give Me Your Money,” “Golden Slumbers,” “Carry That Weight,” and maybe “Because” or “Sun King.” ETA: Frank Sinatra thought “Something” was terrific (although he misattributed it to Lennon-McCartney). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Swedish\_Viking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9f8e36/32.png) [@The\_Swedish\_Viking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Swedish_Viking)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/31 "2018-01-28T12:44:13Z")
Two really good rock tunes are Bad Boy (1965) and Helter Skelter (1968). There are rumours about a 30 minutes unreleased version of Helter Skelter, but personally I’m nearly 100% sure it don’t exist. The Beatles made many live performances at British BBC. Here is a link to prabably a complete set of all BBC outtakes. [http://beatles-rare-bootlegs.fanclub.rocks/beatles\_unsurpassed-broadcasts\_bbc\_remastered.html](http://beatles-rare-bootlegs.fanclub.rocks/beatles_unsurpassed-broadcasts_bbc_remastered.html) I’m proud to have seen all four tours the Fab Four made 1963, 1964, 1965 & 1966. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/32 "2018-02-02T04:01:32Z")
When you analyze the harmonic structure, “You Never Give Me Your Money” and “Golden Slumbers” are both constructed on the circle of fifths progression, which of all chord progressions is the most characteristic of the Great American Songbook. “YNGMYM” in particular uses two different circle of fifths patterns in the first two sections. Its final section, however, uses the inverse circle of fourths progression or double plagal cadence, which is the Beatles’ own invention and was used by very many rock musicians taking after them. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/33 "2018-02-02T04:46:56Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > When you analyze the harmonic structure, “You Never Give Me Your Money” and “Golden Slumbers” are both constructed on the circle of fifths progression, which of all chord progressions is the most characteristic of the Great American Songbook. > > “YNGMYM” in particular uses two different circle of fifths patterns in the first two sections. Its final section, however, uses the inverse circle of fourths progression or double plagal cadence, which is the Beatles’ own invention and was used by very many rock musicians taking after them. I"m having difficulty believing the Beatles are the ones who came up with it. Just off the top of my head “Gloria” by Them from 1964 has this progression. ETA: Also, “Last Time” by the Rolling Stones in 1965, but this feels like a progression that goes much farther back. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/34 "2018-02-02T05:46:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I"m having difficulty believing the Beatles are the ones who came up with it. Just off the top of my head “Gloria” by Them from 1964 has this progression. > > ETA: Also, “Last Time” by the Rolling Stones in 1965, but this feels like a progression that goes much farther back. I think it’s fair to say that it came into use as a musical meme for the british invasion era on, and the Beatles used it, and were influential, voila? Them is the first one I can think of off hand, and the Stones based both The Last Time and Satisfaction on it. But it appearsa on Motown records, and goes back to Bo Diddley and Buddy Holly, and the everly brothers. I just did a little search and it seems like it isn’t found a lot prior to this except for maybe Wagner. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/35 "2018-02-02T06:05:32Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that it came into use as a musical meme for the british invasion era on, and the Beatles used it, and were influential, voila? Them is the first one I can think of off hand, and the Stones based both The Last Time and Satisfaction on it. But it appearsa on Motown records, and goes back to Bo Diddley and Buddy Holly, and the everly brothers. > > I just did a little search and it seems like it isn’t found a lot prior to this except for maybe Wagner. Yeah, I wasn’t thinking that far back (Wagner). It feels like something that should go back to early blues, but I guess I could believe that Bo Diddley or so is as early as it goes. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/36 "2018-02-02T06:35:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, I wasn’t thinking that far back (Wagner). It feels like something that should go back to early blues, but I guess I could believe that Bo Diddley or so is as early as it goes. One of the great songs of all time has one in it: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv-tjDsdduc) Rikki Don’t Lose That Number (Mad cackling laughter…) ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/37 "2018-02-02T18:47:08Z")
Look at this: [https://www.e-chords.com/chords/paul-mccartney/hold-me-tight-lazy-dynamite-hands-of-love-power-cut](https://www.e-chords.com/chords/paul-mccartney/hold-me-tight-lazy-dynamite-hands-of-love-power-cut) McCartney goes through a circle of fifths: G, C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A. ---
**Author:** ![SpeedwayRyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@SpeedwayRyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeedwayRyan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/38 "2018-02-02T20:35:25Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > “A Little Help From My Friends” has a deliberate, jaunty beat that comes straight from the 1890s – easier to keep time so that Ringo was relatively freed up for the vocals. They were already done touring by then so there wouldn’t have been a consideration for playing the song live, and in the studio they would have built up the basic track before adding vocals, so Ringo would lay down drums separately from his vocal take…if the beat was simple, IMO, it was a stylistic choice and not to make Starr’s job easier in any way. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932/39 "2018-02-02T21:18:28Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > “When I’m 64” seems to have a throwback feel. Yes, but it’s a throwback to the old English music hall sound. There’s nothing Tin Pan Alley about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beatles-songs-showing-tin-pan-alley-influences/806932.md?page=1)