# Because it needs it, I pit The War in Iraq
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [May 28, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958 "2008-05-28T23:29:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/41 "2008-05-29T15:50:44Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher]
At least before this fiasco I could pretend we were the good guys. Do we torture? Pro’lly. Do we have the blood of tens (hundreds) of thousands of innocent on our hands. Yup. Are we spending billions of dollars on bullets while billions of people are lacking basic food, water or medicine? Check. My illusion that we are the good guys is shattered. I sold my white ten gallon hat and now am growing out my handle bar mustache so I can tie damsels to railroad tracks in style.
[/QUOTE]
This is the bit that hurts me the most about all this. Don’t get me wrong; I have a ton of sympathy for anyone, from any country, who lives in a land where a war is raging, but this.. I look at news stories about what our country has become (especially when it comes to intelligence / information gathering) and I wonder when the hell we became the Soviet Union we all used to tell jokes about in the 80’s. I wonder when the hell we collectively traded in our morals for victory. It shames me as an American.
To use a quote that I find disturbing, as it came out in 1998 (The movie is ‘The Siege’, about some over-zealous reaction to terrorism striking in New York):
> [@](#):
>
> “Come on General, you’ve lost men, I’ve lost men, but you - you, you _can’t_ do this! What, what if they don’t even want the sheik, have you considered that? What if what they really want is for us to herd our children into stadiums like we’re doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they’ve won. They’ve already won!”
I dunno. I hope we can get back on our feet. I hope we can learn that diplomacy isn’t a bad word, as several politicians in power today seem to suggest. I’m not optimistic, and that perhaps scares me the most.
---
### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/42 "2008-05-29T15:59:59Z")
**WeirdDave** , yuo seem like a normally smart guy. Are you totally ignorant of the concept of having allies? I don’t get it.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/43 "2008-05-29T16:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
No, it doesn’t. We could have the respect of almost every man, woman and child on the planet, and if we leave ourselves vulnerable to a despotic regime (admittedly I’m having trouble coming up with a scenario where this is possible, if only because of geography), they would invade and take us over without a second thought.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: That does not mean “the respect of the rest of the world” **does not matter,** only that it is not a military shield. There **are** other things that matter, you know.
In some respects, actually, it **is** a shield because it gives us reliable allies.
---
### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/44 "2008-05-29T16:10:23Z")
> [@ArrMatey!](#):
>
> To use a quote that I find disturbing, as it came out in 1998 (The movie is ‘The Siege’, about some over-zealous reaction to terrorism striking in New York):
>
> “Come on General, you’ve lost men, I’ve lost men, but you - you, you _can’t_ do this! What, what if they don’t even want the sheik, have you considered that? What if what they really want is for us to herd our children into stadiums like we’re doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they’ve won. They’ve already won!”
[/QUOTE]
What is the point of this quote? Those things have not happened. Or maybe I missed the stadiums of children. Or the soldiers on American streets. We do not have Americans looking over their shoulders. The law always get bent by the executive branch, but this administration has not shredded the Constitution.
And now for the important part: the terrorists do not win if we give up some civil liberties. They do not even win if we give up all our civil liberties. This is an idea that is beyond stupid. Did al-Jihad win in Egypt when the Egyptian government went go so far as raping a child and photographing the rape to use turn the child against his father?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/45 "2008-05-29T16:11:46Z")
[QUOTE=tdn]
**WeirdDave** , yuo seem like a normally smart guy. Are you totally ignorant of the concept of having allies? I don’t get it.
[/QUOTE]
The kindest thing, and none too kind it is, to be said for **Weirddave** is that he represents what you might call the Joe Lieberman-neocon wing of the Democratic Party.
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### Author:  [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/46 "2008-05-29T16:11:52Z")
The worst part, IMO, is - what the hell do we _do_ at this point? Do we stay in Iraq and keep doing what we’re doing with the hope that somehow things will get better? Or do we leave, and leave a country without any functional government, without any infrastructure, and really without much hope?
I know nothing about military strategy or anything like that, but I can’t help but feel that we’ve created a situation where absolutely no one wins.
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### Author:  [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/47 "2008-05-29T16:12:07Z")
If we had the respect of the world, some of them would become our allies and join us in the good fight to combat terrorists.
Sadly, we do not have this respect, and so we are much more vulnerable to terrorists.
See how that works, **Weirddave**?
ETA: My this thread is moving quickly, and I see that others have already made the “allies” point. Is **Weirddave** listening, though?
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/48 "2008-05-29T16:13:04Z")
[QUOTE=tdn]
**WeirdDave** , yuo seem like a normally smart guy. Are you totally ignorant of the concept of having allies? I don’t get it.
[/QUOTE]
No, I’m not, not at all. I’m not sure where you got that, or even what you mean by it in the context of my remarks here, but I’ll take a stab at it: Nations have allies because it is in both of their self interests to form an alliance. The benefit may be military security(NATO), trade(NAFTA) or something else entirely, but the nations entering into the alliance believes that it is in it’s best interest to do so. I’m not aware of any significant long term alliances created simply because two countries “like” each other. (US/UK and US/Canada are the closest I can think of, and even then, both countries have overwhelming ties of mutual interest).
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### Author:  [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/49 "2008-05-29T16:15:56Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher]
I am a Christian. How frickin’ arrogant that someone try to share the love of Jesus with the community while we have our boot on their neck?! WTF?!
[/QUOTE]
No hard feelings, but that was the primary vehicle for the spread of Christianity since it’s inception throughout most of Western Civilization. Why stop now?
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/50 "2008-05-29T16:17:18Z")
[QUOTE=Spiff]
If we had the respect of the world, some of them would become our allies and join us in the good fight to combat terrorists.
Sadly, we do not have this respect, and so we are much more vulnerable to terrorists.
See how that works, **Weirddave**?
[/QUOTE]
See, the “respect of the world” is immaterial to this scenario. Countries will join us fighting terrorists when and only when they believe it to be in their best interest to do so. If they believe it not to be in their interest, they won’t, no matter how much they “respect” us. “Like” and “respect” are interpersonal concepts that do not exist between nations.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/51 "2008-05-29T16:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
The kindest thing, and none too kind it is, to be said for **Weirddave** is that he represents what you might call the Joe Lieberman-neocon wing of the Democratic Party.
[/QUOTE]
Oooooh! “neo-con”. you’ve pulled out your big insult! I am crushed!
I think the kindest thing that can be said about you is that politically, your masturbatory fantasy of a socialist America will remain a pipe dream, no matter how many Democrats get elected, and that your ignorance on politics and international relations is bounded only by the paranoid delusions of whichever blogger is telling you what to think today.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/52 "2008-05-29T16:26:23Z")
[QUOTE=NinjaChick]
The worst part, IMO, is - what the hell do we _do_ at this point? Do we stay in Iraq and keep doing what we’re doing with the hope that somehow things will get better? Or do we leave, and leave a country without any functional government, without any infrastructure, and really without much hope?
[/QUOTE]
Pull out. Then either the Iraqis will have their own full-blown civil war, or the Iranians (who are better positioned and better qualified than we are to do so) will stabilize the situation. Either way, a stable society will result **in the long run.**
It’s like with Vietnam. A lot of horrible things happened after we pulled out, but it was still the most beneficial thing, in the long run, that we could do under the circumstances. **Now** Vietnam is a stable and prosperous and not-really-all-that-Communist country.
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### Author:  [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/53 "2008-05-29T16:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Countries will join us fighting terrorists when and only when they believe it to be in their best interest to do so.
[/QUOTE]
In fairness, they may also be waiting for us to finish creating them.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/54 "2008-05-29T16:28:10Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
I think the kindest thing that can be said about you is that politically, your masturbatory fantasy of a socialist America will remain a pipe dream, no matter how many Democrats get elected . . .
[/QUOTE]
On that point I have absolutely no doubt, but I rather thought your opinion was the reverse.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/55 "2008-05-29T16:28:27Z")
[QUOTE=Cluricaun]
No hard feelings, but that was the primary vehicle for the spread of Christianity since it’s inception throughout most of Western Civilization.
[/QUOTE]
Incorrect.
> **[History of Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity)**
>
> The history of Christianity begins with Jesus, an itinerant Jewish preacher and teacher, who was crucified in Jerusalem c. AD 30–33. His followers proclaimed that he was the incarnation of God and had risen from the dead. In the two millennia since, Christianity has spread across the world, becoming the world's largest religion with over two billion adherents worldwide.
> Initially, Christianity was a mostly urban grassroots movement. Its religious text was written in the first century. A for...
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/56 "2008-05-29T16:38:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
On that point I have absolutely no doubt, but I rather thought your opinion was the reverse.
[/QUOTE]
Well, that’s why they call it a political continuum, isn’t it? You think the US is hopelessly skewed to the right while I think that we’ve taken good basic liberal ideas and extrapolated them to absurdity, veering dangerously far to the left. Just because I think things have gone too far to the left presently doesn’t mean that I can’t see you waaaaaaaayyyy over there beyond them. If I climb a tree. And use binoculars. 😛 😃
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/57 "2008-05-29T16:46:33Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Well, that’s why they call it a political continuum, isn’t it? You think the US is hopelessly skewed to the right while I think that we’ve taken good basic liberal ideas and extrapolated them to absurdity, veering dangerously far to the left. Just because I think things have gone too far to the left presently doesn’t mean that I can’t see you waaaaaaaayyyy over there beyond them. If I climb a tree. And use binoculars. 😛 😃
[/QUOTE]
My point exactly. I’m a member of the DSA who, with no illusions, always supports the Dems as the best game in town, but you appear to be of that faction that makes the damned-of-Og DLC look like respectable leftists.
The difference being, my presence in the Democratic Party makes a certain kind of sense, but yours (and Lieberman’s, and Zell Miller’s) doesn’t so long as the Republican Party exists as an option.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/58 "2008-05-29T16:53:38Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot]
You think this war was justified?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Yes
[/QUOTE]
Then you’re a complete fucking idiot.
The invasion of Iraq was a total “fuck you” to the body of international law.
And what, exactly, do we have to show for it? We didn’t achieve our stated aim; we haven’t really even achieved the aim we made up after the first one turned out to be a dud.
We _did_ kill a lot of Iraqi civilians and American servicemen. If that’s what you were going for, then bully for you.
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### Author:  [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/59 "2008-05-29T16:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=tdn]
**WeirdDave** , yuo seem like a normally smart guy. Are you totally ignorant of the concept of having allies? I don’t get it.
[/QUOTE]
While **moral respect** of allies might be lacking (and not a subject I’m interested in debating), have any countries ceased being our \*\*ally \*\* because of the war? I confess my ignorance in this matter.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 29, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/60 "2008-05-29T16:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
While **moral respect** of allies might be lacking (and not a subject I’m interested in debating), have any countries ceased being our \*\*ally \*\* because of the war? I confess my ignorance in this matter.
[/QUOTE]
Well, nobody’s pulled out of NATO yet, not even France.
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