# Because it needs it, I pit The War in Iraq
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [May 28, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958 "2008-05-28T23:29:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/161 "2008-05-30T03:56:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Soldiers are not on the streets.
There are National Guardsmen patrolling the PATH trains/stations here. Just saying.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/162 "2008-05-30T04:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=ArrMatey!]
First of all, don’t call bullshit on what I say I know. I believe very much that our current administration signs away rights of people on flimsy moral justification. I believe that american citizens (see Jose Padillia) are taken away and denied certain basic legal rights. (And now I wait for you to say ‘Oh, you BELIEVE it, huh?’)
[/quote]
I am aware of José Padilla (as opposed to Jose Padillia). He had his day(s) in court. What specific rights was he denied? What did the courts with proper jurisdiction have to say about this? Can you name some other Americans you believe have been denied basic rights and the specific rights they have been denied?
> **[José Padilla (criminal) | Habeas corpus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner)#Habeas_corpus)**
>
> Because Padilla was being detained without any criminal charges being formally made against him, he, through his lawyer Jennifer Martínez, made a petition for a writ of habeas corpus to the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, naming then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as the respondent to this petition. The government filed a motion to dismiss the petition on the grounds that:
> [@](#):
>
> However, I’ll rewind a bit- I was quoting a MOVIE and using it as a show of how other nations see us. I kind-of assume you realize this. You may not. If not, I’ve now explained it. People see our nation in this way. That is the perception. I’ve talked to people from both Russia and England and they’ve both aserted this perception of a stripping of rights of citizens. I was quoting a movie that had examples of that, and saying that it reminded me of the current situation, but I repeat, for your benefit, **It was a movie.**
> It does, however, illustrate how we’re seen in the world. Is this clear now?
I know it was a movie, but you claimed it put forth an accurate representation of the perception of America. Specifically, in part, that America was herding American children into stadiums, and that there were soldiers on the street. Whatever the source of this perception, it has no basis in reality. American children are not herded into stadiums. Soldiers are not on the street.
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### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/163 "2008-05-30T04:12:38Z")
Ah! I now see where they pulled that number from!
If the land area of Iraq was a square 411 miles on a side, and you wanted to cover every inch of it using a bomb with a 3.45 mile blast radius, you would need 14,000 bombs.
411 / 3.45 = 119. 119 \* 119 = 14161. Gotcha.
Sorry for the confusion on my part.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/164 "2008-05-30T04:13:25Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus]
What are you, some kind of cartoon super-villain?
[/QUOTE]
Do you believe that some thing exists that can trump power? What is it? Don’t keep this information to yourself. Future people in the position of the Melians need to know.
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/165 "2008-05-30T04:30:19Z")
Myself, I still support the invasion. I’m just sorry it got handled so badly.
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### Author:  [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/166 "2008-05-30T04:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Do you believe that some thing exists that can trump power? What is it? Don’t keep this information to yourself. Future people in the position of the Melians need to know.
[/QUOTE]
I’d rather be a dead Melian than an Athenian with blood on my hands.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/167 "2008-05-30T04:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Do you believe that some thing exists that can trump power? What is it?
[/QUOTE]
Reality. And thus, ethics, because good ethics tend to have a strong basis in reality. Whereas the whims of the powerful don’t.
Over the centuries, the behavior of the world has gotten collectively more ethical, because “power is all that matters” is fundamentally **stupid**. Because ruthlessness is fundamentally **stupid**.
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### Author:  [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/168 "2008-05-30T04:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=Frank]
I am simply stunned that there are still people supporting the invasion of Iraq. Not simply supporting the troops that are there now; nor simply saying, “We broke it; we bought it,”; nor simply trying to maintain our national reputation as a badass; but in all seriousness saying that the invasion of Iraq was correct.
Stunned.
[/QUOTE]
People have invested too much in it. They spent years arguing this shit. Some just can’t accept that what they supported wasn’t just wrong it was indefensible.
They were lied to and they bought it. They fell into step and stayed in step. I see no reason to argue with them anymore. They’re wrong. By any measure they’ve been proven so. Let them spout their self deluding shite and look past them. They truly are too far gone to matter or care about.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/169 "2008-05-30T04:59:07Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus]
I’d rather be a dead Melian than an Athenian with blood on my hands.
[/QUOTE]
Either way―the Athenians won.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/170 "2008-05-30T05:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Reality. And thus, ethics, because good ethics tend to have a strong basis in reality. Whereas the whims of the powerful don’t.
[/quote]
Tell that to Kim Jong-il.
> [@](#):
>
> Over the centuries, the behavior of the world has gotten collectively more ethical, because “power is all that matters” is fundamentally **stupid**. Because ruthlessness is fundamentally **stupid**.
On what basis is it more ethical? On the subjective views of those able to make such judgments?
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/171 "2008-05-30T05:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Do you believe that some thing exists that can trump power?
[/QUOTE]
Your statement is self-fulfilling and therefore vacuous. Power in this context is by definition the measure of one’s inability to be trumped. The only interesting question is what it is best to do with the power you have.
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
If I’m the US, it’s in my best interest for as many countries as possible to be ruled by stable, peaceful regimes.
[/QUOTE]
Stable peaceful regimes almost never come from Iraq-like invasions. On the contrary, such invasions lead to decades of turmoil. Even invaders with good intentions are hated by the locals within weeks. After 15-25 years you may get stability, but the weird overlord/collaborator/underclass power structure that develops means that when the invader leaves there is typically a power struggle that leads to chaos for decades. Look at what happened to countries ruled by GB for decades.
You’ve naively bought into the neocon’s fantasies without considering whether they have any basis in reality.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/172 "2008-05-30T05:22:06Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester]
The only interesting question is what it is best to do with the power you have.
[/QUOTE]
And that is a subjective question. There is no absolute and objective right thing to do. It is a choice, and not everyone will agree. When there is a disagreement, it may be settled in any number of manners, but when it comes down to it, force (and resistance) is the ultimate arbitrator.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/173 "2008-05-30T05:55:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **two and a half inches** : I am aware of José Padilla (as opposed to Jose Padillia). He had his day(s) in court. What specific rights was he denied? …Can you name some other Americans you believe have been denied basic rights and the specific rights they have been denied?
Padilla, an American citizen, was held on American soil for three years without being charged. He was denied the right to due process. Another American, Yaser Hamdi, was also held for almost three years without being charged or tried.
I have no doubt that you are already aware of the massive civil rights violations perpetuated by the Bush administration. And the slack-jawed Congress went along with him when they passed the so-called “Patriot” Act. (See Propaganda Techniques, Use of Glittering Words.)
> [@](#):
>
> …but when it comes down to it, force (and resistance) is the ultimate arbitrator.
The British poet Lovelace would have said that it was honor. Maybe that was what motivated the force or the resistance.
Why speak with such authority? Why is it so important to you?
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/174 "2008-05-30T06:24:38Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
When there is a disagreement, it may be settled in any number of manners, but when it comes down to it, force (and resistance) is the ultimate arbitrator.
[/QUOTE]
You keep saying this as if it is somehow relevant, but no one here is denying it, nor does it any way assist with the discussion. What the fuck is your point?
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### Author:  [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/175 "2008-05-30T12:46:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
However, to be truly comprehensive, we should add a fifth, the “imperialist” or “piratical” argument:
(e) War is not necessarily desirable or glorious in and of itself. It is, however, a perfect legitimate means for a nation or state to win territory, resources, power, or anything else that might serve its national interests. Independent sovereign states, even if internally ordered by laws and social and moral norms, exist in a perpetual state of nature in relation to one another, because “international law” is an oxymoronic and meaningless concept in the absence of any international government with the power to enforce it. A perpetual competition for power and wealth is therefore inevitable, and any nation too scrupulous to participate will fall prey to other states with less tender consciences. Now lie down on the floor and remain calm.
I venture to suggest that theory (e) has played a more important role in influencing the actual behavior of states and leaders throughout history than the other four combined. I even see it, in effect, occasionally defended in this Forum.
And several times in this thread.
I hope I do not need to explain why (e), while less insane than (d), is no more defensible.
[/QUOTE]
This argument reminds me vaguely of those religious folks who suggest that moral or altruistic behavior is impossible without the constant threat of Divine punishment as an incentive. It seems to me that such a belief says more about those who hold it than about the actions of others, and I think something similar may apply here. Those who claim that it’s pointless to seek international goodwill because others would stab us in the back as soon as it’s in their best interests-- these people are really saying, “I, personally, would stab you in the back as soon as it’s in my best interests.”
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/176 "2008-05-30T12:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
BG, can you tell me how you’re going to force despotic regimes into your hypothetical one world government?
[/QUOTE]
By carrot, stick, and infinite patience. The International Union would give lavish aid to any non-member state that is clearly setting itself on the path to liberal democracy and a good human-rights record – and possibly impose economic sanctions on any that goes the other way, and since the IU would control the bulk of the world economy from the start, sanctions would really **mean** something. Sooner or later all would come around.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/177 "2008-05-30T12:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
I take the same position on existence of the good as Dawkins does on God:
[/QUOTE]
Whether God exists or not **is** a scientific question (though likely not one science can ever actually resolve). Ethical standards are not. That’s the difference between an “is” and an “ought.”
The best contemporary discussion of the question I know is in [_The WHYS of a Philosophical Scrivener,_](http://www.amazon.com/Whys-Philosophical-Scrivener-Martin-Gardner/dp/0312206828/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212152184&sr=8-1) by Martin Gardner, Chapter 5, “Goodness: Why I An Not an Ethical Relativist.”
Epigraph from same book:
> [@Stefan Kanfer](#):
>
> Philosophy is concerned with two matters: soluble questions that are trivial, and crucial questions that are insoluble.
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### Author:  [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/178 "2008-05-30T13:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=mlees]
Ah! I now see where they pulled that number from!
If the land area of Iraq was a square 411 miles on a side, and you wanted to cover every inch of it using a bomb with a 3.45 mile blast radius, you would need 14,000 bombs.
411 / 3.45 = 119. 119 \* 119 = 14161. Gotcha.
Sorry for the confusion on my part.
[/QUOTE]
It’s still erroneous. Not your math! The whole underlying premise equating DU-enhanced munitions (of which we don’t have a lot, and what we do have is not in “general use” by the Peacekeeping Force/Army of Occupation/Host of Satan) with radioactive fallout. See my previous cites.
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### Author:  [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/179 "2008-05-30T13:57:20Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
I am aware of José Padilla (as opposed to Jose Padillia). He had his day(s) in court. What specific rights was he denied? What did the courts with proper jurisdiction have to say about this? Can you name some other Americans you believe have been denied basic rights and the specific rights they have been denied?
> **[José Padilla (criminal) | Habeas corpus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner)#Habeas_corpus)**
>
> Because Padilla was being detained without any criminal charges being formally made against him, he, through his lawyer Jennifer Martínez, made a petition for a writ of habeas corpus to the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, naming then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as the respondent to this petition. The government filed a motion to dismiss the petition on the grounds that:
I know it was a movie, but you claimed it put forth an accurate representation of the perception of America. Specifically, in part, that America was herding American children into stadiums, and that there were soldiers on the street. Whatever the source of this perception, it has no basis in reality. American children are not herded into stadiums. Soldiers are not on the street.
[/QUOTE]
I hope my misspelling doesn’t bother you too much. As for the hammering you do on the movie quote… How about the shredding of the constitution? If you’re going to slam the quote, have the guts to slam the whole thing. My assumption is you know what sort-of can of worms you’ll be opening if you do.
In case you’ve forgotten the rest of the quote:
> [@](#):
>
> [H]ave Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they’ve won. They’ve already won!
Tell me the war hasn’t increased fear in America. Tell me people aren’t looking over their shoulders. Tell me that we haven’t engaged in activities that people consider torture, or that laws haven’t been bent. Tell me it with a straight face. THIS is what foreigners see about us now. THIS is what I’m ashamed of. This and the notion that splitting hairs on definitions of torture, of splitting hairs on matters of legal or illegal survailence, of splitting hairs when it comes to simply throwing citizens’ rights out the window… That’s what is making perception of this country what it is, and it’s what I’m ashamed of.
Is that a good enough answer to your question? Or shall we only refute half of the quote that I used from a movie as illustration to my point?
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### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/because-it-needs-it-i-pit-the-war-in-iraq/450958/180 "2008-05-30T14:02:20Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank]
It’s still erroneous. Not your math! The whole underlying premise equating DU-enhanced munitions (of which we don’t have a lot, and what we do have is not in “general use” by the Peacekeeping Force/Army of Occupation/Host of Satan) with radioactive fallout. See my previous cites.
[/QUOTE]
I know that, sir.
I’m trying to figure out where the author of the quoted article came up with the number. See my previous posts on this topic, particularly the one three posts before the one you quoted above.
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