Because it needs it, I pit The War in Iraq

The BBQ Pit
61

Nobody has ceased to be your ally. There are many other countries represented in Afghanistan. Iraq not so much.

Iraq was bullshit from the get go. The reasons given were bullshit and the only countries that pushed them were the countries that fell into line behind the US, UK, Spain, Australia etc.

They’ve all pulled back since because the leaders that led the push for war have all now being replaced (for other internal reasons but the Iraq War did not help).

The US may have got more and quicker aid and help if it had not gone down the arrogant route it took while trying to push at the UN for a mandated war.

The Iraq war had no justification IMO. The reasons given were BS and half truths at best. It’s foundations were bad and what came after was unforgivable.

62

Shut the fuck up and go away

63

Is this your unusual response when the facts get in the way of your prejudice?

64

No, this is almost everyones response to you in regards to any goddamn thing. Surely you’ve caught even the tailing end of that drift by now.

65

Are you going to apologize for your lies about the spread of Christianity? We will see if you are an honest person.

66

You mean in the movie, or my use of it here? Obviously, that -exact- thing hasn’t happened (or the History Channel would be having a field day talking about how there were hidden prophecies in all of Denzel Washington’s movies or somesuch), but I point it out as the way America is currently perceived in the world, and how much it disturbs me. I don’t like being looked at as a country where, because of terrorist actions and the overblown fear thereof, we are willing to do some pretty despicable things to not only foreigners, but our own people.

If you mean in the movie (I don’t think you do, but I thought I’d cover all bases), in that particular scene, Washington’s character is trying to point out that the various freedoms the PTB are trying to ‘protect’ are getting shredded bit-by-bit. It was several years before 9/11, and it’s haunting because it’s ringing true. No internment camps, certainly, but the basic idea of the sacrifice of freedom and rights in the constitution… Well, certainly you can make the connection.

No insult, just trying to answer your question.

67

I suspect they’re just stunned because you, the uncrowned king of pointless Pit threads, are calling someone a crybaby for Pitting the war.

68

:rolleyes: This is the Pit, dumbass. The appropriate and designated place for ranting and venting, constructive potential emphatically not required. Read the forum descriptions.

69

Nobody apologizes for the Spanish Inquisition!

70

So, uhm, not to pile, but you do realize this is from the article you cited? (bolding mine)

So, uhm… Yes. Christianity has expanded via war. Not saying it always has, just saying your demand for an appology over such an idea might not be justified.

71

No, the terrorists win if they get the one thing Osama bin Laden wants more than anything else, and what he was trying to spark on 9/11: A general war between the Western world and the Islamic world. (Which bin Laden believes would end in Islamic victory and the emergence of a united Islamic Caliphate as the world’s new superpower – it’s in his writings.) Bush hasn’t given them that yet but he’s taken several steps down the path, and might well be ready to go a few more by bringing Iran into it.

72

If people perceive that America is like The Siege, then they are grossly misinformed ignorant asses―America is not like that, as you said. Even if we changed our actions, why should the perception of America change? As you have already said, there is a disconnect between the reality and the perception of America’s actions.

If you are really disturbed by the perception of America, would it not be better to point out how the perception of America is wrong?

73

There is not going to be a general war between the Western world and the Islamic world in the perceivable future.

And, if there was, Islam would lose.

But, that still has nothing to do with American civil liberties.

74

Only if I believed it was.

75

I know. Both Osama bin Laden and George W. Bush seem to grossly overestimate the Islamic world’s potential for unity. (Just to start with, the Sunni and the Shi’a could never agree to follow the same Caliph!)

Yes, it would. But the West would not win.

No, but I’m sure ObL takes nothing but pleasure in following our post-9/11 course in that regard.

76

Which calls to mind one of the great mistakes in US foreign policy towards the Middle East over multiple years - the undermining of Arab nationalism and the creation of a vaccuum that can be filled by Islamic Unity. Iran needs to unite on the basis of religion - Syria and Iraq, as secular Arab states, could have been an effective block to that expansion. Now it looks like we might even lose the third of the Arabic powers, Egypt, to pan-Islamicism. Meanwhile, at the same time, we are providing the very external threat that Iran needs to keep a lid on internal dissent in its very young, very unstable population. It’s a complete clusterfuck and it is having the exact opposite effect to that which is desired.

77

Hundreds, to thousands of tons of depleted uranium? PUH-LEASE! :rolleyes: As soon as I heard that, I turned her off.

Do any of you have any idea how many DU tank tounds would have to be fired to put hundreds to thousands of tons of depleted uranium into the air as a fine particulate dust?

A protracted U.S./NATO vs. USSR conventional war might; the war in Iraq did not.

I’ve handled 105mm and 120 mm DU rounds; they weigh in at about 40-45 pounds, with the weight fairly even distributed, perhaps very slightly “ass heavy.” The 105mm round’s ejecta is an aluminum shell casing weighing about 10 pounds; the 120mm round is almost entirely consumed, and ejects an “AFCAP” (after-cap) the size of a large ashtray or bowl.

The 120mm DU Sabot is a freakin’ rocket of a round compared to the 105mm, which is the reason we use it nowadays. The HEAT round weighs more (due to the explosive filler in the projectile), and is definitely nose heavy, but, to my knowledge, there’s no DU in the HEAT round.

So for the 120mm, I’d put the actual DU projectile at about 25 pounds, minimum, to 35 pounds, maximum (11.3 kg and 15.9 kg, respectively).

Assuming “hundreds of tons (metric)” is, at a minimum, 200 mt, there would have to be anywhere from 12,579 to 17,699 DU rounds fired.

For the “thousands of tons” claim, assuming even 1,000 mt of DU dust is in the air, would require 62,893 to 88,496 DU rounds to have been fired.

Making her claim even more improbable is the fact that not all of the mass of the DU munitions is converted. So you now have an “X-factor” multiplier to the number of rounds fired necessary to bring us the “hundreds to thousands of tons” of DU residue she claims.

Since that particular round (M829 “Silver Bullet”) is specifically (and almost exclusively) a tank-killer, I seriously doubt that we’ve seen anywhere near that kind of DU munitions expenditure in the Iraq War, especially since armor has devolved to a secondary to tertiary role in the peacekeeping process.

78

You already said you do.

So you admit that it has not happened, and then you say that that is the perception. So you should believe that perception is wrong.

79

So how would the terrorists win? They do not want to see the West damaged. They want to establish a caliphate. A general war with the West will assure that this will not happen.

And the West would win. It would be massively costly and ugly win, but a win.

80

No, the aftermath would be like the present occupation of Iraq, but on a transcontinental scale. Definitely not a win.

Making the occupied Germans give up being Nazis is a whole lot easier than making occupied Muslims give up being Islamists; any forceful effort along those lines is far more likely to push them even more towards Islamic radicalism. As we should have learned by now.