# "Becoming Alpha"? Check your humanity at the door. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941 "2010-07-08T07:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/81 "2010-07-09T17:26:51Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The conversation has developed in an enlightening way, I think. This is no ordinary nice guy/slut/alpha/jerk thread. > > I want to put a bug in y’all’s ear, though, about _confidence._ Self-confidence is not confidence. If you want your conversations to go further than a phone number on a napkin, you need to show confidence in _life._ > > You need to demonstrate that you are an effective, motivated, and worthwhile human being. You don’t need to be a perfect superachiever. But you need to be involved in - and committed to - _something that matters to other people_. You also need to at least suggest that you are reliable, that you produce, and that you deliver. > > We live in a world that is ruled by production, routine, and work. Whatever you do for a living, you need to be a _professional human being_. You need to show that you accept that world and don’t refuse its demands. That is confidence in something outside yourself and in life, as understood in our time. I think you’re hitting on something here–after all, how many online dating ads have we seen with “no drama”, “must have car/job”, etc., all of which can be summed up as “must be functional as a human being in your own right”. The examples speak to a classic sense of what that means, but more important I think is finding someone who’s got the same idea of what that means as you do–this is how starving artists\* get dates, after all, by finding chicks who care more about “true to myself and my art” than “able to feed and house a family”. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Now, granted, a lot of the trappings of “confident in dealing with the world” require as a prerequisite “self-confident”, so I can see where people might prefer phrasing it as the latter rather than the former. \*not to be confused with **Starving Artist** , who we can presume gets dates by talking to conservative middle-aged ladies who appreciate the finer points of riling up liberals online. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/82 "2010-07-09T17:28:09Z")
I’ve encountered a movement very similar to this which existed on the internet pre-web (very early 1990’s) which essentially had the same beliefs - you’re either an alpha male or trash, and women were commodities and second-class citizens. People who read John Norman books and think “yeah…that’s the way it ought to be.” The movement I knew of called itself “the Alpha Males” and had US and European chapters, and was engaged in grandiose plans to do such things as get women from the FSR to serve as, well, in effect sex slaves. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/83 "2010-07-09T17:41:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Dude, **even sven** ’s talking about white guys hitting on local girls _in Western China_. However great the success of the jerks she describes, that’s a pretty exceptional environment, and success there doesn’t exactly translate to a likelihood of similar success in a more prosaic setting. I bet it works at home, too, though. It is amazingly easy to manipulate women with low self-esteem, and you can find them anywhere. What makes me feel sick and lose is that lots of people find this lifestyle somehow fulfilling and even ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/84 "2010-07-09T17:59:37Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I think you’re hitting on something here–after all, how many online dating ads have we seen with “no drama”, “must have car/job”, etc., all of which can be summed up as “must be functional as a human being in your own right”. The examples speak to a classic sense of what that means, but more important I think is finding someone who’s got the same idea of what that means as you do–this is how starving artists\* get dates, after all, by finding chicks who care more about “true to myself and my art” than “able to feed and house a family”. > > Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Except that as life gets more and more of a 24-7 rat race, such chicks are fewer in number, lower in intelligence, and generally fucked up in their own right. > [@](#): > > Now, granted, a lot of the trappings of “confident in dealing with the world” require as a prerequisite “self-confident”, so I can see where people might prefer phrasing it as the latter rather than the former. Self-confidence is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition. I said it an another thread, but perhaps it’s applicable here: \*\*\*The key to life is to be fully part of an inhuman world and still, somehow, remain human. \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/85 "2010-07-09T18:08:13Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Except that as life gets more and more of a 24-7 rat race, such chicks are fewer in number, lower in intelligence, and generally fucked up in their own right. This is so far from my experience as to be alien to me. As for the rat race, I’d stab myself in the eye from stir-craziness if I tried to be an artist type, but yet I’m happily married to a woman who sits in her home office and writes novels or freelance as it suits her. It’s not as simplistic as all that, I think. > [@](#): > > Self-confidence is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition. > > I said it an another thread, but perhaps it’s applicable here: > \*\*\*The key to life is to be fully part of an inhuman world and still, somehow, remain human. \*\*\* I’d quibble with this, since we’re talking about a human society, built by humans and operated by humans. It’s almost impossible by definition for it to be inhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/86 "2010-07-09T18:28:54Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > You don’t need to be a perfect superachiever. But you need to be involved in - and committed to - _something that matters to other people_. This is strong food for thought. It’s a good summation of why I sometimes feel lacking compared to other people I see. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/87 "2010-07-09T18:34:51Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > \*\*\*The key to life is to be fully part of an inhuman world and still, somehow, remain human. \*\*\* Way to be a downer! You’re never getting laid with that line! ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/88 "2010-07-09T18:44:47Z")
This is not talk for date night. This is facing facts - well actually, facing beliefs society _treats_ as facts, whether they acknowledge those beliefs or not. Which is what counts. We’re trying for social interaction with people we don’t know so well, and that only happens on society’s playing field. If you can’t be yourself and still play the game, your life is going to be poor and lonely. If you can’t play the game and still be yourself, your life is going to be false and hollow. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/89 "2010-07-09T18:54:13Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Way to be a downer! You’re never getting laid with that line! Says you! For some of us, a good philosophy is like foreplay. I’ve always been a sucker for the introspective humanitarian type. _fans self_ ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/90 "2010-07-09T19:05:31Z")
Which prompts me to pose the fundamental ontological question…How YOU doin’? 🆒 Actually, I’m not really all that humanitarian. I’m a bloody-minded existentialist hoping against hope that there’s something better. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/91 "2010-07-09T19:06:26Z")
The thing is, most of the people I’ve seen teaching this stuff really aren’t anywhere near the asshole of this guy. Most of the stuff out there really isn’t this bitter. Even David Deangelo–one of the guys mentioned in this blog–warns you about going too far.\* And that’s what it seems to be–an insecure guy overcompensating to the point of ridiculousness. And while there are women too stupid to pick up on it, he’s not desirable to most women. sven has a different outlook on life. She thinks people who occasionally make jokes about a female stereotype are assholes. So, by her definition, there probably are a lot of assholes getting women. But guys like this? The older I get, the more rare it seems. \*I told you I used to read this stuff. > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I thought men also like confident women, or so I have been told. I am sure somebody constantly seeking approval and needing crutches to do anything would get tiresome really fast, however hot. Well, if you’re that bad, maybe. But it’s really not that big a deal. If anything, overly confident women tend to get labeled as pushy or aggressive. And my experience is that approval-seeking behavior can actually be endearing for men. Needing me, and not just wanting me is definitely on my list. ETA: Gah. Once again, by the time I finish my response, the topic has changed and gotten a lot deeper. I agree that the world can be rather inhumane, but Doug’s attitude sounds overly defeatist. Retaining humanity in an inhumane world is innate–except for psychopaths. But then they are considered to have a disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/92 "2010-07-09T19:12:52Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’ve always been a sucker for the introspective humanitarian type. > > _fans self_ [Issei Sagawa] "Well, I used to be a _vegitarian_, but … " [/Issei Sagawa] ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/93 "2010-07-09T19:14:43Z")
Nietzsche was the introspective philosopher type, and he believed in being the biggest alpha male of them all. I bet he got way more pussy than Kierkegaard. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/94 "2010-07-09T19:21:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > [Issei Sagawa] "Well, I used to be a _vegitarian_, but … " [/Issei Sagawa] Only in Japan… From the wiki: “He has also written restaurant reviews for the Japanese magazine Spa.” I can imagine his comments now: ‘tastes a bit like thigh.’ ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/95 "2010-07-09T19:23:16Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Nietzsche was the introspective philosopher type, and he believed in being the biggest alpha male of them all. I bet he got way more pussy than Kierkegaard. Well, Nietzsche _did_ supposedly die of syphilis … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/96 "2010-07-09T19:26:04Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Only in Japan… From the wiki: “He has also written restaurant reviews for the Japanese magazine Spa.” I can imagine his comments now: ‘tastes a bit like thigh.’ 😃 Who _wouldn’t_ be interested in restaurant reviews from a psycopathic cannibal? ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/97 "2010-07-09T19:28:52Z")
Two simultaneous conversations, both unrelated to the OP? The hijack is complete. Mwahahaha! ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/98 "2010-07-09T19:32:07Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Personally, that blog made me hawt. Reminds of my relationship with a fireman. Talk about alpha male. He made me feel like shit and I loved every minute of it. Phew! _fans self_ You know, I used to date a fireman. Very alpha and very hot. One time, in flagrante delicto, I erm…started taking control of the rhythm and pace of things. He said “Hey, who’s fucking who, here!?” I said “I’m fucking YOU.” He said “Oh, okay then.” 🙂 > [@Kobal2](#): > > I like my women like I like my coffee : COVERED IN BEES ! I like my men like **Covered in Bees!!**. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/99 "2010-07-09T19:32:55Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Two simultaneous conversations, both unrelated to the OP? The hijack is complete. Mwahahaha! Women love men with the moxie to hijack threads. [/closes the loop :D] ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/100 "2010-07-09T19:57:56Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Which prompts me to pose the fundamental ontological question…How YOU doin’? 🆒 > > Actually, I’m not really all that humanitarian. I’m a bloody-minded existentialist hoping against hope that there’s something better. I have, in my day, known at least a dozen chicks who’d be all over that, along with a side of “I’m an existentialist, and I’m fucking cool as hell”. Judging by the guy I’m thinking of, you need dark Lennon glasses and some stubble, and to hang around philosophy students and/or goths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941.md?page=6)