# "Becoming Alpha"? Check your humanity at the door. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941 "2010-07-08T07:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/121 "2010-07-12T13:46:09Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I’m of the opinion that this is a viral marketing stunt put out by some movie studio. > > A feature film is coming out that will pit a “Game” character against a “[Rules](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_rules)” character. The Rules character will likely have one gay friend; the Game character will have a former fratboy friend who is now married, stable, and immersed in fatherhood. The main characters meet via some threadbare contrivance and the movie follows the two as they try and woo and be wooed by each other (initially because of the challenge, eventually because a spark of romance ignites). Much comedy ensues. Amid all the high-jinks, the two will grow to realize that they just want to be loved, that their pretenses were actually alienating them from friends, family, and society in general, and that the empty rewards of the Game/Rules were actually standing in the way of their ultimate happiness. It’s like you were there for my sophomore year of college. Except for the part where she realizes the Rules are sabotaging the relationship. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/122 "2010-07-12T13:59:08Z")
> [@kimera](#): > > The thing is, from the position of someone who studies primates, that website and nearly everyone striving to be ‘alpha’ in this PUA games have what it means to be an alpha male all wrong. The alpha male is a strong, confident, aggressive guy, but he also can’t afford to be a jerk for several reasons: > … > In other words, a good primate alpha is one who is socially astute and clever and often relies on social manipulation rather than overall aggression or posturing. PUA types focus on creating this facade in order to appear to be “alpha” to strangers. It’s all an act engineered to manipulate people into thinking they are more than they are. As \*\*olivesmarch4th \*\*pointed out, it’s not about building lasting relationships. It’s about short-term conquests. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/123 "2010-07-12T15:37:30Z")
> [@kimera](#): > > The thing is, from the position of someone who studies primates, that website and nearly everyone striving to be ‘alpha’ in this PUA games have what it means to be an alpha male all wrong. The alpha male is a strong, confident, aggressive guy, but he also can’t afford to be a jerk for several reasons: > > One, the females won’t tolerate it. Even in the species where males are dominant over females, females have a lot of power, especially when they can join together with other females. Among the capuchins I study, the females will team up together to fight the alpha male if he does something wrong. No matter how strong a potential alpha male is, he can’t control the group if he doesn’t have support of at least the influential female figures. This doesn’t mean that jerks towards females don’t get made alpha, just that they also have to suck up to at least certain females in order to maintain their power and occasionally the ones instrumental in their overthrow are female. > > Two, the other males won’t tolerate it. Like most apes and intelligent monkeys, we are a social species where power isn’t captured by brute force but is formed and maintained through alliances. A single jerk can be overthrown by a group of others. In order to maintain his position as an alpha, an alpha male must have support from other males. Sometimes this goes as far as allowing the other males to have privileges he’d rather have for himself. For example, there was a chimp in a zoo who allowed the beta male (the one who’s second to him) to have more matings than he took himself in order to hold onto power. > > Three, violence and general jerkiness isn’t necessarily a good characteristic of a leader, which is what it means to be an alpha. Often the meanest in our groups end up being beta rather than alpha. The alpha has to be socially clever and maintain friendships and social times and, while social cleverness and brute strength/meanness aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, it’s rare to find an individual who is maxed in both aspects. As I said before, what we often find is the alpha and his beta ‘enforcer’. > > Finally, I had a chance to ‘meet’ the individual who was the longest running alpha male in animal history with a reign of at least 19 years. He was a very socially astute kind monkey who groomed everyone (normally alphas receive grooming rather than do it themselves) and built up an army of males who were incredibly loyal to him because he was generous with his favors. He was a tough monkey to be sure, and he socially manipulated the males in his group so they never could team up together against him, but he wasn’t the biggest monkey or the strongest monkey I’ve seen. Eventually he was overthrown, but only after a long reign, as the average capuchin lifespan is estimated to be about 40-50 years, and they don’t reach sexual maturity until about 7 years. > > In other words, a good primate alpha is one who is socially astute and clever and often relies on social manipulation rather than overall aggression or posturing. Enjoyable post. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/124 "2010-07-12T15:46:00Z")
> [@rivelino](#): > > Very insightful, and I have to say that I agree with what you wrote. I have sometimes fantasized about moving out of the city and going to live in the countryside. Taking my savings to a small rural town, buying a small house with a big yard, rescuing 10 shelter dogs and just living with them for the rest of my days. Reminds me somewhat of Holden Caufield’s desire to go live as a deaf-mute in a small town. > > \ > > However, I think you make the same common mistake that many others do, in just saying that we should all think “in terms of humanity” and that there are no games here, only people. I wish that were true. Sadly, we humans love to play games. We love to both collaborate but also compete. And not everyone plays nice. A lot of people play dirty. I think you, like any of us, have a choice whether you are going to transcend your conditioning or not. I was conditioned to believe all sorts of ideas about the way the world works and who I am - and I have consciously identified and rejected every single one of them because _they do not serve me_. Your fantasies can tell you a lot about what you value deep down inside. I’m not saying you have to move into the country (though you certainly can if you really want to), but you can use that vision as a guide for the decisions you make. You are correct that some people do play games. I imagine if you do work at a law firm in a major city, you are surrounded by a culture of values that encourages that. It’s not the only world there is. There are a lot of people out there that don’t buy into it, that don’t look at every social interaction as a chance to show off. Even if you have to pay lip service to that shit at your job doesn’t mean you have to put up with it in your personal life. It’s exhausting enough as a professional - do you really want to deal with that at home? Don’t you want a place where you can just be yourself and be vulnerable or happy or arrogant or sad or whatever it is you happen to be in that moment? Because if you try to attract a partner by denigrating and devaluing her, you’re going to end up with someone who resents you and plays games too, and you won’t feel safe in your own home. It will be a constant game of manipulation with no space to just exist. I cant imagine living life like that. It sounds like hell. I think you are in the middle of this process, and I think you will work it out. Maybe you’ve lived most of your life as a doormat. Sometimes it’s necessary for us to swing to the opposite extreme before we can find our center. I just hope you realize you are operating at an extreme, here. You seem like a philosophical-minded person, so I will recommend to you my favorite movie, _I Heart Huckabees_. It’s a comedy about existentialism and has a little something for everyone. I think you might recognize yourself in one of the characters. [QUOTE=rivelino] I need to read more about Nietzsche’s Will to Power. I think it explains the world. [/QUOTE] If I were you, and speaking as someone who read this book in a formal academic setting, I would work very hard to make sure you understand _Will to Power_ in the full context of the rest of Nietzsche’s body of work. Also understand that it was unfinished at the time of his mental collapse in 1889 and heavily edited by his abusive anti-Semitic sister Elizabeth Forster-Nietzsche, who used the work as Nazi propaganda. There has been speculation that many sections of _Will to Power_ weren’t even written by Nietzsche. Also keep in mind that Nietzsche was not a happy person and never really was. He was almost certainly bipolar. And, as I mentioned earlier, he got no ass he didn’t pay for and died of syphilis. Which isn’t to say one can’t profit tremendously from his ideas – I certainly have. But take everything he says with a grain of salt, man. He wasn’t exactly a master of his own destiny. If you want a more constructive look at the problem of suffering, try Viktor Frankl’s memoir\* Man’s Search for Meaning.\* He could tell you all about how badly men want to dominate and denigrate others; he lived through the Holocaust. He decided to use his experience in the service of others, working as a psychologist in the concentration camps and collecting data about how people survived the experience. The key had to do with your idea of narrative, particularly the construction of meaning. Ultimately he did achieve great professional success – not only because he survived with his soul intact, but because he used his experiences in the interest of the greater good. This is the true alpha male, and Frankl puts the lie to the myth (and it absolutely is a myth) that you have to play games to get ahead in life. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/125 "2010-07-12T15:46:33Z")
> [@rivelino](#): > > \ > 2. True, I could be wrong. But as stated in the strategy above, if I say “We’ve just had a misunderstanding”, I am trying to frame you and the other writers on this thread as having misunderstood what I wrote, and me as being the thoughtful, patient, wiser one. See how it works? I am trying to distract the general audience from the actual text of what is being debated. Of course, most people don’t fall for that. But imagine I repeat this strategy ten times, and I remain patient and calm and with a subtle hint of condescension. Eventually, you might lose your cool because I am being a phony jerk. But if you lose your cool, I win the debate.\ If you repeated the same thing ten times, I’d walk away from you in real life, or just stop responding to you and move on online. If you think that means you won the debate, you are more than welcome to think so. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/126 "2010-07-12T15:49:31Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If you repeated the same thing ten times, I’d walk away from you in real life, or just stop responding to you and move on online. If you think that means you won the debate, you are more than welcome to think so. 🙂 Well, if his game works, it works. Only he can tell us if it does or not. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/127 "2010-07-12T15:52:04Z")
If his game is making people stop interacting with him, it would work beautifully for me. Come to think of it, I would like people to go away sometimes - might have to incorporate some of his techniques. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/128 "2010-07-12T19:21:51Z")
. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@rivelino](#): > > > > 1. Right. If neither person loses their cool, if both remain calm and assertive, then we have a real debate going. All I said is that the first rule of frame control is don’t lose your cool, or you automatically lose. I am still learning other strategies of frame control as it pertains to “winning” an argument, but I do know that a good way is to go beyond the text of the debate, and seek to frame the other person as insecure. I am talking about just in social situations, of course. The Celestine Prophecy talks about this, about calling out the other person’s “drama.” > > > > 2. True, I could be wrong. But as stated in the strategy above, if I say “We’ve just had a misunderstanding”, I am trying to frame you and the other writers on this thread as having misunderstood what I wrote, and me as being the thoughtful, patient, wiser one. See how it works? I am trying to distract the general audience from the actual text of what is being debated. Of course, most people don’t fall for that. But imagine I repeat this strategy ten times, and I remain patient and calm and with a subtle hint of condescension. Eventually, you might lose your cool because I am being a phony jerk. But if you lose your cool, I win the debate. > > If you repeated the same thing ten times, I’d walk away from you in real life, or just stop responding to you and move on online. If you think that means you won the debate, you are more than welcome to think so. 🙂 Precisely. 1 is almost certainly false. To win an argument, you have to get the audience to side with you. I’m just going to assert that as the definition of “winning”. If your strategy is to act like an obtuse, condescending jerk, then you’ll lose the audience. They’ll _beg_ your opponent to lose his cool so that they can vicariously vent their outrage. Have you ever watched a presidential debate and wished you could jump through the TV, onto the stage, to call out the “other guy” on some lie? Don’t you instead with “your guy” would call him a stupid dolt to his face? If you assume that making your opponent lose his cool will automatically win you the audience, you’re wrong. He can get pissed off once you’ve pissed off the audience and he’ll walk away with the win. You can wear a smug smirk and say you won if you want, but I guarantee you that you’ve just surrendered all power to the other guy. I just don’t see how you can think that pissing off people and making them walk away from you makes for good politics. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/129 "2010-07-12T19:40:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I bet it works at home, too, though. And I bet it doesn’t work nearly so well at home. What of it? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/130 "2010-07-12T20:55:54Z")
> [@rivelino](#): > > I am indeed society’s bitch. I was indoctrinated at a young age to be obsessed with beautiful women. I believe it is a combination of my marketing-oriented personality, my artistic eye, and my lonely and frustrated adolescence. Or, more likely, a side effect of being born with a penis. > [@rivelino](#): > > 1. Right. If neither person loses their cool, if both remain calm and assertive, then we have a real debate going. All I said is that the first rule of frame control is don’t lose your cool, or you automatically lose. I am still learning other strategies of frame control as it pertains to “winning” an argument, but I do know that a good way is to go beyond the text of the debate, and seek to frame the other person as insecure. I am talking about just in social situations, of course. The Celestine Prophecy talks about this, about calling out the other person’s “drama.” > > 2. True, I could be wrong. But as stated in the strategy above, if I say “We’ve just had a misunderstanding”, I am trying to frame you and the other writers on this thread as having misunderstood what I wrote, and me as being the thoughtful, patient, wiser one. See how it works? I am trying to distract the general audience from the actual text of what is being debated. Of course, most people don’t fall for that. But imagine I repeat this strategy ten times, and I remain patient and calm and with a subtle hint of condescension. Eventually, you might lose your cool because I am being a phony jerk. But if you lose your cool, I win the debate. I don’t follow what your actual goal is here. Real life is not a debating contest. Typically in our interactions with other people, we generally want something. A girls number, people’s companionship, a job offer, a potential client to give us his business, your subordinates to perform a task as well as they can. You don’t “win” anything by annoying them or inciting them to lose their cool or by being a selfish prick. The way you “become alpha” is to present yourself to others in a way that implies the promise of fulfilling some need or desire - recognition, social acceptance, status, strong decisive direction, protection, solution to some problem they have, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/131 "2010-07-12T23:51:46Z")
They have some interesting realizations, some of which I feel described the human condition, other part not so much, but IMHO unfortunately much closer to the reality then what is commonly though of. Yes men in submission to others are basically sub human, not that they were intended to be, but that’s how they are treated, and they have limited access to others, which is limited access to love. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/132 "2010-07-13T15:01:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > They have some interesting realizations, some of which I feel described the human condition, other part not so much, but IMHO unfortunately much closer to the reality then what is commonly though of. Yes men in submission to others are basically sub human, not that they were intended to be, but that’s how they are treated, and they have limited access to others, which is limited access to love. Be honest— you assemble all of your posts using those refrigerator magnets with words printed on them, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/133 "2010-07-13T17:49:35Z")
That would explain a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/134 "2010-07-14T03:16:55Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The sad thing is, there are A LOT of guys out there like this. > > And they all end up coming to western China…their despicable actions do indeed translate into nearly infinite sex. The bad guys win. Is it simply that those guys go to Western China or is it that once there, a lot of guys realize that they can be assholes and still get infinite sex? I presume that the non-asshole westerners in western China also get nearly infinite sex if they want to. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Problem is, most women that say this aren’t out there fighting the good fight, aka laying milquetoast nice guys. So naturally, the bad boys keep winning. In these women’s perfect world, it wouldn’t be the bad guys getting laid, it’d be NO ONE getting laid. It’s a simple fact that when you’re mean to women, they want you. No one wants to ride the lamb, they want to ride the bull. If you really want to change that, go lay a geek. Frequently. Most women I know are going out with pretty decent guys. Here are a few rules for getting laid: Figure out who you are. Nothing is more attractive in a young man than knowing who you are. Be really good at something, anything and failing that be passionate about something. Have a lot of friends of the same gender, it makes you seem more male. Don’t let sex be the only reason you are talking to a woman, women can sense this and it puts them on the defensive. Don’t be obnoxious but don’t be shy around women. If a woman is little more than a life support system for a vagina to you, then you might as well be paying a prostitute because, you would get what you want without emotionally screwing up every woman you date. When you are mean to SOME women, they want you. By their mid-twenties, most women don’t really want to date assholes unless they are rich assholes. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s basically my understanding that women appear genetically prone to be attracted to high status men, just as men typically want to be high status. What appears much less hard wired is the definition of “high status\*”. So I regard abusive jerks and the women who go out with abusive jerks because they find them attractive\*\* to be gender swapped mirror images, in essence. The men who think being a thug or jerk is the apex of manhood, and the women who agree. So if it’s those particular women you want, then yes probably the only way to get them is to be (or fake being) the thug they lust after. Yes! [quote] Or, you can just find women who have better taste in men. The sort of women whose definition of “high status, desirable male” is something like “smart”, “devoted to me”, “polite”, or whatever qualities you have instead of being a thug. Personally, I don’t want some woman who’s looking for a man who pushes her around; I find women like that creepy.{/quote] YES!!! > [@](#): > > - An interesting example of this; I understand that according to the psychologists one effective means of making women attracted to you, is to impress men. Even if the typical woman thinks that a man is being a fool by being a daredevil, skydiving or whatever, if she sees men acting all impressed by what he’s doing, that will tend to make him attractive to her. Because after all, there’s not really any better indicator of being a high status male, than having actual high status among males. YYYYYEEEEEESSSSS!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/135 "2010-07-14T04:40:22Z")
Tissue? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941/136 "2010-07-14T15:03:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Most women I know are going out with pretty decent guys. Here are a few rules for getting laid: > > Figure out who you are. Nothing is more attractive in a young man than knowing who you are. > > Be really good at something, anything and failing that be passionate about something. > > Have a lot of friends of the same gender, it makes you seem more male. > > Don’t let sex be the only reason you are talking to a woman, women can sense this and it puts them on the defensive. > > Don’t be obnoxious but don’t be shy around women. > > If a woman is little more than a life support system for a vagina to you, then you might as well be paying a prostitute because, you would get what you want without emotionally screwing up every woman you date. > > When you are mean to SOME women, they want you. By their mid-twenties, most women don’t really want to date assholes unless they are rich assholes. You, too, seem to be confusing picking up women with dating. “Emotionally screwing up every woman you date”? “Don’t really want to date assholes”? Who said anything about dating? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/becoming-alpha-check-your-humanity-at-the-door/545941.md?page=6)