# Bees are animals too **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587 "2003-06-26T19:07:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![David\_Plankton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@David\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/1 "2003-06-26T19:07:58Z")
Is honey considered suitable for vegans? It is after all an animal by-product. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/2 "2003-06-26T19:35:31Z")
It is not by strict vegans. [http://www.vegsource.com/joanne/qa/qahoney.htm](http://www.vegsource.com/joanne/qa/qahoney.htm) What’s to debate? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Green\_Feather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@The\_Green\_Feather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Green_Feather)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/3 "2003-06-26T19:36:59Z")
I just asked a vegetarian. OK for vegetarians, NOT OK for vegans. Vegans eat no aminal products at all. I had to ask someone else as I am an omnivore. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Plankton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@David\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/4 "2003-06-26T20:07:41Z")
but it is’nt animal in origin. it is made from pollen/nectar. it is made by bees, not from them ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/5 "2003-06-26T20:14:08Z")
Read the link I gave you. It explains. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/6 "2003-06-26T21:08:48Z")
autz: While I cannot speak on her moral or ethical statements, I can tell you that Joanne Stepaniak makes several factual mistatements in the link you provide. As an amateur beekeeper I will address these. > [@](#): > > The difference between vegans and nonvegans, however, is the element of intent. Vegans consciously strive to do no harm to any sentient life, including insects. This does not mean that vegans do not hurt others inadvertently, but that it is never their aim to do so. When one takes this statement into account some of her later statements are in error. > [@](#): > > Honey is made from sucrose-rich flower nectar that is collected by honeybees and then regurgitated back and forth among them until it is partially digested. After the final regurgitation, the bees fan the substance with their wings until it is cool and thick This is not true. The bees do not digest or partially digest the nectar. They have a storage organ specifically for the transporting and processing of nectar into honey. > [@](#): > > This mixture, which we call honey (which is essentially bee vomit), is then stored in the cells of the bees’ hive and used as their sole source of nutrition in cold weather and other times when alternative food sources are not available. Calling honey bee vomit is factually innacurate, and quite frankly seems to me an attempt to gross people out, nor is honey the sole source of nutition through the winter. It is only a part of their food source for some of their bees. The overwintering hive consumes both honey and pollen, primarily pollen in the later winter months (it’s the food for larval and young bees. A good portion of the hive goes into a kind of hibernation or intentional die off to save energy) > [@](#): > > Even though humans inadvertently benefit, the bees do not pollinate plants in order to serve human needs; it is simply a secondary aspect of their nectar collecting This is innacurate. Bees pollinate plants to serve human needs. Honey bees are not indigenous to the U.S. > [@](#): > > The honey that bees produce is stored in their hives for their own purposes. When humans remove honey from the hive, they take something that is not rightfully theirs. This is both naive and untrue. As a beekeeper I am in perfect symbiosis and harmony with my bees. I need them, and they need me and we each get something out of the deal. I provide them a home (and they are free to leave if they are unhappy with the arrangement.) By building the hive and stocking it with their essential needs in terms of beespace (a whole other discussion,) I make it as inviting as possible so that they will stay and devote their time to gathering honey rather than hivebuilding. I own the hive. I put it there. The bees moved in. Wild bees are in deep trouble because of diseases like foulbrood and tracheal mites. Essentially all the honeybees you see are from kept hives. The wild bees do not make it for long because of these diseases. Wild hives tend to die out in 3-4 years do to mites and foulbrood. Both of these diseases are treatable (and I treat them,) organically. Fatty sugarcakes do no harm to the environment but retard the tracheal mites reproductive cycle and allow an infested hive to recover. I destroy all foulbrood infestations. If I did not do these things the hive would die. Not only is my intent to do no harm. My intent is to do well by the bees. If I put the effort into the hive body that I built, they will fill it with honey, of which I may take a portion. You see, I’ve done some of the work for them. I have not coerced them into staying. I have actively looked after their interests. I am entitled to a portion of the honey by the nature of the symbiosis I share with my bees. > [@](#): > > To collect honey, beekeepers must temporarily remove a number of the bees from their home. During the course of bee management and honey collection, even the most careful beekeeper cannot avoid inadvertently injuring, squashing, or otherwise killing some of the bees. This is simply false. I need not move any bees to collect honey. Like virtually all beekeepers I collect my honey in the following manner. There are normally two hive bodies on the hive. These they fill to raise their young and to store food and pollen and such. When the bees are doing very well and the hive is strong and a honey flow is on, I add a third hive body. As bees will do, they will fill this third hive body eclusively with honey (provided I’ve done things properly and the hive is as strong as I think. After a week or so, I lift the hive body up, and put a piece of cardboard so that no bees can enter the honey body (called a “super”) from underneath. Then I place a one way door at the top of the hive. Bees exit the super, and no longer enter it from the bottom. After two days it is completely empty of bees, and I may remove it and harvest honey. Not a single bee need be injured. Additionally her statement about hive manipulations injuring bees is also false. Most beekeepers can and do do hive manipulations specifically without injuring any bees. Injured bees get mad. We try to avoid this. It doesn’t take much skill to be gentle. > [@](#): > > Bees are not harmed by the process of pollination – it is something they would do whether or not humans were involved or reaped any profit Untrue. This is how they pick up foulbrood and tracheal mites, and they wouldn’t be doing it if we didn’t bring them into the country in the first place. And they would die out if we did not tend them. > [@](#): > > Utilizing bees to pollinate crops in no way necessitates ravaging their hive. Sadly this is untrue. The bee diseases have spread so dramatically to the epidemic proportions that they are specifically because we use bees to pollinate. These hives are typically not cared for or manipulated, and thus virtually all of them suffer from foulbrood or mites. They are sealed and transported across the country to pollinate during different times, and they get no ventilation at this time, killing many many bees. Part of the management of such an operation plans on having hives decimated during transport. They then recover at the next pollination site, and are devastated as they move again. This action is in lieu of proper treatment and hive manipulation. > [@](#): > > Because there are numerous alternatives to honey, from a vegan perspective there is no justifiable rationale for using it. Ok. Nobody’s making you use it. Least of all me. I simply object to the ignorant and false statements made against those who keep bees. There is no justification to using honey, but none is needed. No harm is intended. No harm is done. The bees benefit from the symbiotic relationship. They get more out of the relationship than most plants get, so I see no call for condemning honey on the grounds that the practice of beekeeping harms bees when the opposite is provably correct. > [@](#): > > If vegans want to indulge in sweets, there are many substitutes available: organic, unbleached cane sugar (somewhat kinder to the environment, but not necessarily better for the workers); beet sugar; maple sugar; maple syrup; concentrated fruit syrups; rice syrup; barley malt; and sorghum syrup, among others. We do not need to choose between exploiting humans or bees in order to satisfy our sweet tooth. As anybody knows, the practice of raising sugarcane is devastating to the environment in which it is done. Typically it is grown in southern lowlands near rivers and other places with rich dark soil. The wetlands need to be cleared and drained. There is active fertilization and insect treatment which leeches into water systems, etc etc. My bees aren’t exploited. They can leave. They stay because net of everything I provide them a favorable environment in which they can flourish, and we live in symbiosis. I try not to be all touchy feely about this, but beekeeping is a perfect example of the way we should be living, of the way we should be keeping the earth. My existance with the bees, benefits the bees. The bees benefit me. They benefit the rest of the environment. None of this would be happening if I wasn’t in the picture tending the bees. I do this for the share of the honey for which I am entitled, and for the pleasure of doing it, and doing it well. There is a net gain to my environment because of my beekeeping. Can this be said of many other activites? Personally, because of these facts I beleive Vegans are wrong and ignorant to reject honey. If you are trying to tread lightly on this earth, give more than you take, live in harmony, and be a benefit rather than a harm, than I challenge you to find me another activity that does these things as well as beekeeping. Rather than disparaging or shunning honey and beekeeping, these things should be a jewel of achievement to be displayed by pride by someone who espouses the ethics Vegans claim to. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/7 "2003-06-26T23:05:09Z")
Interesting and very informative accoutn, **Scylla** , thanks. I’m particularly intrigued because it completely contradicts the assertions that another beekeping doper gae me in an earlier thread on this topic. I’ll see if I can get a link. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/8 "2003-06-26T23:10:11Z")
Very interesting, **Scylla**. Can you explain what foulbrood is exactly? (It sound like something out of MacBeth). Also: what is a fatty sugarcake and how do you apply it? Oh yes - and I LOVE honey. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/9 "2003-06-26T23:14:09Z")
Haha! It turns out that the other poster was none other than… **Scylla**! > [@](#): > > From my 2001 thread:[Do Vegans eat honey?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?&threadid=72019) > **Scylla wrote:** > Anybody who thinks honey is a “non-death” food doesn’t know much about beekeeping. > > That little jar of honey represents homicide on a massive scale, nary to be seen in any other form of agriculture. > > Better you should eat veal. and > [@](#): > > **Scylla wrote:** > I stand corrected. “Apicide” would be the correct term. > > I keep bees as a hobby, so I speak from experience. > > “re-queening” to keep a hive producing, is deliberate murder of the queen of an existing hive. Kind of a “Coup D’etat,” takeover where you destroy the head of state and replace her with your own puppet leader. > > Smoking a hive to manipulate it always kills bees and larvae. When you talk about moving frames around in a hive of 50,000 to 100,000 bees, hundreds get inadvertently crushed each time. > > Then, all the bees want to do is get strong enough to swarm. As beekeeper, it’s your job to keep them down. You want a strong hive, but you thwart their swarming by murdering potential queens and and drones in the larval stage. Infanti-apicide? Larvacide? > > Bees, of course eat honey, and if you are working a hive for honey production, you don’t want them feeding all that good stuff to their young’uns. So, you remove a few frames of brood, matter of factly murdering tens of thousands of bees. > > If you have a bee yard (which I don’t,) it’s not uncommon to murder an entire hive for various reasons. > > All this has much improved since the old days when you pretty much destroyed the entire hive harvesting honey, which would result in wholesale slaughter akin to an average World War. > > That honey was paid for in the blood of innocent bee-children! Interesting eh? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/10 "2003-06-26T23:17:52Z")
Nice post, **Scaylla**. The wife and I are interested in keeping bees and may start some day soon. As it is, we call our spread “The BeeSkep Ranch”. Might as well live up to the name. Your info jibes with what we know about it. Wife’s cousin is a beekeeper and we learn what we can from him. No bees are harmed in his operation. I want the honey for my home-brewed ales! 😃 Anyway, back to the “debate”! * * * Fagjunk Theology: Not just for sodomite propagandists anymore. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/11 "2003-06-27T01:42:10Z")
Scylla: I’m assuming you live in North America, but if I’m wrong I know someone will correct me. If that’s the case, you’re saying that honeybees were brought here by (presumably) Europeans? That’s fascinating, and I had no idea that was the case. I have honestly believed that if there were no bees you would not have apples and plums and other good stuff. Which leads to my question: How were plants pollinated before the honey bees were brought? To put it another way, when people brought honey bees, were they displacing another insect species that had previously done the pollination? Surely all of the North American plants can’t have been self-pollinating or have wind-borne pollen? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/12 "2003-06-27T01:49:07Z")
European honeybees are only one of a huge number of bee species. There were dozens of native bee species before European arrival. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/13 "2003-06-27T02:49:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > \*\*European honeybees are only one of a huge number of bee species. There were dozens of native bee species before European arrival. \*\* My understanding is that there were no hive bees. We had bumblebees, but that was it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/14 "2003-06-27T02:55:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*Very interesting, **Scylla**. > > Can you explain what foulbrood is exactly? (It sound like something out of MacBeth). > > Also: what is a fatty sugarcake and how do you apply it? > > Oh yes - and I LOVE honey. \*\* Foulbrood is a bacterial disease. It attacks the larvae of bees, and basically rots them as they grow. As the bees tend the young they spread the disease. They pick it up in contact with other bees and with flowers they pollinate. It is treatable only by destroying infected portions of the hive, and sadly sometimes entire hives. Fatty sugarcakes are the new recommended treatment for tracheal mites. We used to use these apistan strips which were an inseciticide which killed the mites. However, bees do not live long, and the tracheal mites reproductive cycle depends on synchronization with the bees. By mixing sugar and lard, (or Crisco oil) into cakes and placing it in the hive, the bees consume it, and the chemical interferes with the signalling of the mites’ reproductive cycle in some way that I don’t understand, and the mites die off. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/15 "2003-06-27T03:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > My understanding is that there were no hive bees. We had bumblebees, but that was it. Not sure what you mean by ‘hive bees’, but there are several social bee species native to North Am that I am aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/16 "2003-06-27T03:14:16Z")
Mangetout: Ahhh, clearly you are justifiably concerned. Two things to be aware of though. I am writing from a different perspective in my ealier post, essentially describing commercial bee operations which work to maximize honey production. Like the bee pollination outfits, these comercial outfits are less concerned with the wellbeing of their hives. In my more recent post I am speaking from the perspective of an amateur beekeeper hobbyist who cares for and enjoys tending his bees. Also, my philosophy of beekeeping has also changed with time. As of 2001 I was only in my second year of hivekeeping. Now I am a savvy expert of four years or so. For example, I have learned how to smoke a hive properly. Previously I got a bonfire going in my smoker and blasted the bees with hot smoke, committing massive apicide in my clumsiness. Now I use less and cooler smoke avoiding the overkill. My manipulations have also gotten much less frequent and more adroit, and I feel confident that I am moving frames around without killing bees. Seeing as now I can manipulate the hive without killing and pissing off bees, things are better for all concerned. Also, after a couple of years getting 50 pounds of honey from a hive, I’ve learned that there is really only so much honey I can use in a gien year, and it is unnecessary for me to kill frames of larvae. But yes, I still do kill off drone cells and queen cells to prevent swarming. And, I do requeen every second year or so. My posts may seem contradictory, and perhaps they are, but they really are both true. It depends on what your philosophy is and what kind of operation you’re running. Personally, I don’t really think much of killing queen cells, or drone cells, or even queens. I think from a bee’s perspective they are not really individuals. The hive is the actual organism. Treating parts of the organism for the whole’s benefit may be no worse than clipping a fingernail. So, to answer your challenge: 1. I was writing from a different perspective. 2. I know more now than I did then. I’ve gotten better 3. Whether your a beneficial type beekeeeper or a beeslavedriver depends on how you run your shop. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/17 "2003-06-27T03:20:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > \*\*Not sure what you mean by ‘hive bees’, but there are several social bee species native to North Am that I am aware of. \*\* That I am unaware of. Can you give me an example? I do know that we have several species of large bee (bumblebee) that is social to a certain degree in that four or five may live in close proximity in cooperative manner, but I did not know that we had any indigenous bees that formed hives like honeybees. We have wasps that do that, but not indigenous bees that I’m aware of. Could you name me, or show me some indigenous social bee species? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/18 "2003-06-27T03:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*Scylla: I’m assuming you live in North America, but if I’m wrong I know someone will correct me. If that’s the case, you’re saying that honeybees were brought here by (presumably) Europeans? That’s fascinating, and I had no idea that was the case. I have honestly believed that if there were no bees you would not have apples and plums and other good stuff. > > Which leads to my question: How were plants pollinated before the honey bees were brought? To put it another way, when people brought honey bees, were they displacing another insect species that had previously done the pollination? Surely all of the North American plants can’t have been self-pollinating or have wind-borne pollen? \*\* Bumblebees, yellowjackets, flies, and such did the job before honeybees. We also brught over a lot of European plants and such that are more dependant on honeybees than indigenous species to my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/19 "2003-06-27T05:22:46Z")
Scylla - both were great posts. When I read the first one, way back when, I thought it was a little tongue in cheek. Also, great point about sugar cane. I grew up around ag, and I’m sick and tired of people think plants just magically grow up out of the ground and roll themselves to the farmer’s market with no trouble to any living thing. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/20 "2003-06-27T07:14:21Z")
The two major groups of North American social bees are the bumblebees and the sweat bees, both of which exhibit varying degrees of social behaviour amongst species, from solitary through to truely scoial with specific breeding queens. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587.md?page=2)