# Bees are animals too **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587 "2003-06-26T19:07:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/41 "2003-06-28T05:10:50Z")
**Scylla:** _The cite unfortunately was unwilling to say something of this nature, and instead attempted to justify the position with falsehoods._ Actually, the cited article does say that > [@](#): > > Although the issue of honey is not deemed the most pressing concern of many vegans, honey is nevertheless considered an animal product. […] Furthermore, the vegan position on honey is definitive. Honey was prohibited for use by vegans according to the 1944 manifesto of the British Vegan Society (veganism’s founding organization), a position consistent with the requirement for full (vegan) membership in the American Vegan Society since its inception in 1960. So the bottom line does seem to be “honey’s out because it’s an animal product, even though individual vegans’ ethical beliefs about beekeeping may vary.” “Falsehoods”? That may be a bit strong: after all, even you the Benevolent Beekeeper say > [@](#): > > Personally, I don’t really think much of killing queen cells, or drone cells, or even queens. > > I think from a bee’s perspective they are not really individuals. Could well be, but I think from a vegan’s perspective, they are. As I understand it, it’s this whole concept of humans’ running the lives of other animals—making the decisions about who lives, who dies, who breeds, etc.—that vegans find repugnant. I think it’s more a case of a different attitude than of deliberately spreading falsehoods. _As anybody knows, the practice of raising sugarcane is devastating to the environment in which it is done._ True, but the article seems to be talking about organically grown sugarcane, which is less environmentally nasty, and in fact strongly recommends not using sweeteners at all. They may be overstretching the humanitarian issue, but I don’t think they’re really naive about the fact that plant agriculture involves environmental degradation and sometimes harm to animals. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/42 "2003-06-28T05:25:54Z")
kimstu: > [@](#): > > Actually, the cited article does say that And I took no issue with that. I took issue with the parts that were wrong or ignorant. Leave it at that and I’m fine. I really don’t care who eats honey. > [@](#): > > Could well be, but I think from a vegan’s perspective, they are. As I understand it, it’s this whole concept of humans’ running the lives of other animals—making the decisions about who lives, who dies, who breeds, etc.—that vegans find repugnant. I think it’s more a case of a different attitude than of deliberately spreading falsehoods. Hold that thought for a second. > [@](#): > > True, but the article seems to be talking about organically grown sugarcane, which is less environmentally nasty, and I’m talking about different ways to keep bees. It can be brutal, or harmonious, or somewhere in between. I am maintaining that even for those with the most delicate of sensiblilities it would not be difficult or terribly inneficient to keep bees without murdering them or injuring them at all. The organic pacifistic method of beekeeping would be much more harmonious and beneficial than even the most sensitive organic growing of sugarcane. In fact, I would argue that a compassionate beekeeping stance would produce far less ecological damage and animal fatalities than any other form of agriculture you care to name (even pure hydroponics will require bees to pollinate the crops,) Plowing and cultivating and harvesting kills all kinds of critters. A careful beekeeper need kill nothing. Anyway, her basic premise is about intent. As a beekeeper not only do I not intend harm, I intend and produce a beneficial impact. And organically grown sugarcane is a new one to me. Is there really such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/43 "2003-06-28T05:53:06Z")
**Scylla:** _I am maintaining that even for those with the most delicate of sensiblilities it would not be difficult or terribly inneficient to keep bees without murdering them or injuring them at all._ Including no requeening, no anti-swarming “larvicide”? Okay, but still, if your “sensibilities” include the belief that it’s the mere controlling of the bees’ lives by humans that is fundamentally unethical, you’re still not going to approve of it. _Anyway, her basic premise is about intent. As a beekeeper not only do I not intend harm, I intend and produce a beneficial impact._ I see what you’re saying; I’m just pointing out that if your basic belief is that humans should not be the boss of other animals, you’re not going to agree. I also have to wonder: does your type of “organic pacifistic” beekeeping play a major role in commercial honey production? As I understand it, vegans avoid animal products (in addition to the basic should-humans-be-the-boss issue) not so much because they believe that the process **necessarily** harms the animals as because it **usually** does: they’re rejecting the unnecessary inhumanity of the typical industry practices. Is most honey really produced in the tender harmonious ways that you advocate, or are there some scary “deep-litter factory apiaries” churning out most of it? _And organically grown sugarcane is a new one to me. Is there really such a thing?_ Oh, you betcha boss, there’s organic everything, just about. Check out what [Guyana’s](http://www.landofsixpeoples.com/news022/ns207313.htm) doing these days with organic no-pesticide legume-fertilized sustainably-harvested sugarcane projects. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/44 "2003-06-28T07:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > The organic pacifistic method of beekeeping would be much more harmonious and beneficial than even the most sensitive organic growing of sugarcane. Thanks, Scylla Uh, Kimstu, do you have any idea the impact the typical modern legume crop has? And I’m including “organic.” Sorry, I have no repsect for the vegan ideal. It seems to have sprung, like creationism, from a point of view, and then made an effort to fit everything into that point of view. Naturally, I don’t get into this with my vegan friends… ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/45 "2003-06-28T09:20:01Z")
You’re a hard man to convince Scylla. [http://www.colostate.edu/programs/wcrc/annrpt/99/bees.htm](http://www.colostate.edu/programs/wcrc/annrpt/99/bees.htm) > [@](#): > > **Native bees** were sampled in the seed alfalfa producing areas of Mesa and Delta Counties to determine if any were plentiful enough to provide sufficient pollination for economic seed yield… > Bee taxa collected in western Colorado during the summer of 1999 > Halictidae > Dialictus spp. > Halictus spp > Eryalcius spp. > > **Sweat bees**. > These small, mostly solitary or **eusocial bees** include many species that are mostly ground nesting. They may become abundant at times. They were commonly collected from whitetop, flixweed, thistle, globemallow and other plants. The fly throughout the summer. ---
**Author:** ![stevephillips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@stevephillips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevephillips)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/46 "2003-06-28T13:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*I’m not convinced - I don’t see the parasite issue as a fatal problem - as the bee population declines, the parasite population should too - in theory it should strike an oscillating balance, at least in areas where the climatic conditions are within tolerable ranges for natural colonies. > > It is a bit like the foxes and rabbits model - the foxes can never wipe out all the rabbits, because the more they kill, the less food there is to go around and the fox population goes into decline; the the rabbits can’t enjoy an indefinite population explosion, as the glut of food causes a corresponding population explosion in the foxes. \*\* I’d agree except that the honey bee is not the native host for the varroa mite. It jumped from another type of bee, I forget what, but is much more virulant in honey bees than its native host. With the possible exception of Africanized bees in South America, honey bees have not been able to adapt to the varroa mite. There are some reports of a strain of bees called the Russian bee that has specifically been breed to have some resistance to the varroa, but I haven’t kept up to see if has really worked. There are other more serious breeding programs looking for natural resistance such as the New World Carniolian project at the University of Ohio, but at least so far they haven’t come up with anything against varroa mites. Trachial mites, yes, but not varroa. Varroa kills every hive it infects unless treated. The USDA had a program for a while where they asked beekeepers to send in samples of any feral hives they found that might be resistent to varroa, but they didn’t find anything. The hives all turned out to be recent swarms. None had any natural resistance to varroa. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/47 "2003-06-28T13:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > \*\*You?re a hard man to convince Scylla. > > \*\* Not really. I told you I didn’t need another cite. I would have taken your word. But yeah, Ok. You’re right. I’m wrong. There were true social bees here before we brought the honeybee over, even if they are bogus. To quote Bender from “Breakfast Club”: “Pathetic and sad… but social.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/48 "2003-06-29T20:31:53Z")
Posted a link to this thread on my livejournal. Got this response which I just have to share: > [@](#): > > I suppose bees are animals… > > …but so are humans…so I guess a full vegan can’t eat anything that humans make out of plants, either? O\_o ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587/49 "2003-06-29T21:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stevephillips \* > **I’d agree except that the honey bee is not the native host for the varroa mite. It jumped from another type of bee, I forget what, but is much more virulant in honey bees than its native host. With the possible exception of Africanized bees in South America, honey bees have not been able to adapt to the varroa mite.** Fair enough - if the mite has another host that allows it to maintain population and coverage while the non-native bees are in decline, then I suppose this _could_ result in extinction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-animals-too/184587.md?page=2)