# Bees are fish **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 2, 2022, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579 "2022-06-02T16:15:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/1 "2022-06-02T16:15:53Z")
[California court rules that bees are a type of fish in order to protect them under the state’s endangered species act (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/california-court-rules-that-bees-are-a-type-of-fish-in-order-to-protect-them-under-the-state-s-endangered-species-act/ar-AAXYg16?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=3d235f03e88e4942a6368b7a6976d58e) > But on Tuesday’s appeal, the judges argued that they are obliged to “liberally” interpret CESA’s terms in order to make sure it can be effective. > > “Although the term fish is colloquially and commonly understood to refer to aquatic species,” the judges said, legislative jargon in this case could be justified in expanding the definition to fish. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/2 "2022-06-02T16:35:54Z")
Sure. If [beavers are fish](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/thoughtful-animal/once-upon-a-time-the-catholic-church-decided-that-beavers-were-fish/), why not bees? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/3 "2022-06-02T16:39:52Z")
The Old Testament classifies bats as birds, right? And, in Moby Dick, the narrator made the case that whales are fish. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/4 "2022-06-02T16:39:52Z")
Not sure why they went with fish, but from your cite: > Although four different bee species were classified as endangered in 2018, land invertebrates are not explicitly protected under the state’s Endangered Species Act (CESA), which protects endangered “native species or subspecies of a bird, mammal, fish, amphibian, reptile, or plant.” So the argument that the legislative intent was probably to include insects as well isn’t as absurd as it might seem at first. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/5 "2022-06-02T16:42:43Z")
In addition, “invertebrate” was already defined elsewhere as being a “fish” without specifying that it only referred to _marine_ invertebrates, and furthermore, legislators had assumed that this pertained to bees and thus did not think they needed to include terrestrial invertebrates in the law. So the intent was clearly to protect bees. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/6 "2022-06-02T16:43:29Z")
From the ruling, the California legislature actually wrote a law that says, “‘[f]ish’ means a wild fish, mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate, amphibian, or part, spawn, or ovum of any of those animals.” It sure sounds like bumblebees are fish in California. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/7 "2022-06-02T16:45:51Z")
Sounds like a case of “winning the battle but losing the war.” It’s not hard to think of many ways that this “I’ll put XYZ under category ABC any time it suits my purposes” precedent could backfire. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/8 "2022-06-02T16:52:39Z")
It sounds like the judge was clearly interpreting the law as it was written. The Legislature should have had a biologist (or, like, someone who passed high school biology) look over that law before they passed it, but this doesn’t seem like a case of outcome-driven judicial activism. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/9 "2022-06-02T16:53:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sounds like a case of “winning the battle but losing the war.” Did you read the post directly above yours? ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/10 "2022-06-02T17:02:19Z")
Well, of course bees are fish. Duh! [![](https://cdn.gardengrocer.com/attachments/photos/big/14.png?6761) ](https://cdn.gardengrocer.com/attachments/photos/big/14.png?6761) ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/11 "2022-06-02T17:05:24Z")
There is a good joke here, but I ain’t making it! ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/12 "2022-06-02T17:06:47Z")
It’s got to be pretty bad if _ **you’re** _ having second thoughts about it, Gatopescado! 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/13 "2022-06-02T17:07:01Z")
Well, [capybaras (and beavers) count as fish too](https://www.foodandwine.com/news/capybara-beaver-muskrat-lent-approved-foods#:~:text=Because%20capybara%20were%20semi%2Daquatic,consumed%20during%20Lent%20ever%20since.)… at least, if you’re Catholic. I don’t know if the Pope has weighed in on our little buzzy friends. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/14 "2022-06-02T17:18:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The Old Testament classifies bats as birds, right? And, in Moby Dick, the narrator made the case that whales are fish. Yeah, but both those make sense visually. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/15 "2022-06-02T17:20:32Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It sounds like the judge was clearly interpreting the law as it was written. The Legislature should have had a biologist (or, like, someone who passed high school biology) look over that law before they passed it, but this doesn’t seem like a case of outcome-driven judicial activism. This is incorrect. The actual decision says repeatedly that they are interpreting the word fish “liberally” (as a “term of art”) because this would be consistent with “the legislature’s purpose at the time of the enactment”. [C093542.PDF (ca.gov)](https://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/C093542.PDF) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/16 "2022-06-02T17:25:48Z")
I don’t care enough to research it, but if LHoD’s quote in post 6 is accurate, the law explicitly defines invertebrates (as well as several other things that aren’t fish) as being fish. So it’s hard to see what other conclusion the judges could have come to. Was there a dissent? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/17 "2022-06-02T17:31:15Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > … So anyway, everyone is obviously keen to know if you are related to Bee.Fish? And Neil Shubin must be happy with all this publicity for the general fishiness of all things. [Neil Shubin](https://news.uchicago.edu/profile/neil-shubin) > **[Your Inner Fish: a Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year Hi…](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1662160.Your_Inner_Fish)** > > Why do we look the way we do? What does the human hand … ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/18 "2022-06-02T17:32:22Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I don’t care enough to research it, but if LHoD’s quote in post 6 is accurate, the law explicitly defines invertebrates (as well as several other things that aren’t fish) as being fish. So it’s hard to see what other conclusion the judges could have come to. Was there a dissent? Indeed. A “term of art” doesn’t mean “artistic license.” It means it’s a term defined idiosyncratically for a particular purpose. As for the quote, [I pulled it directly from page 4 of the decision](https://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/C093542.PDF), in case anyone wants to check my work :). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/19 "2022-06-02T17:32:44Z")
Well, if ketchup can be a vegetable… ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579/20 "2022-06-02T17:35:47Z")
I’m a Thing Bee, baby Buzzin’ all around your hive-mind… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bees-are-fish/965579.md?page=2)