# Before Jesus was born, was the trinity a duo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279 "2006-11-30T02:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DaveRaver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daveraver/32/1078_2.png) [@DaveRaver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveRaver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/1 "2006-11-30T02:40:42Z")
In Christian theology, did the Holy Spirit exist from the beginning of time along with “The Father” or did the Holy Spirit arrive with Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/2 "2006-11-30T03:22:34Z")
No. All three Persons of the Trinity are **eternal** – have always existed, simultaneously with each other. The first chapter of John’s Gospel specifies that Jesus was the Word of God, through whom the world (cosmos) was made, active agent in everything that was created. The Father is considered “ontologically prior” to the Son, and both to the Holy Spirit, in the same sense that, of three books placed on a table in a stack simultaneously, the bottom one holds up the other two, and the middle one, held up by the bottom, the top one. It’s a case of atemporal causation – cause outside of time. While the [Athanasian Creed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed) is not binding on a lot of churches, it’s probably as thorough a statement as you’ll encounter of the theology shared across almost all of them about this: > [@](#): > > ``` > For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man. > > He is God, ***begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father,*** and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother -- > > existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; > > equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity. > > Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ. > > He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity. > > He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures. > > For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Analogue\_Skywalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Analogue\_Skywalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Analogue_Skywalker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/3 "2006-11-30T04:03:42Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] No. All three Persons of the Trinity are **eternal** – have always existed, simultaneously with each other. The first chapter of John’s Gospel specifies that Jesus was the Word of God, through whom the world (cosmos) was made, active agent in everything that was created. [/QUOTE] I think what the OP is asking is Did the idea or faith in the precense of the Holy Spirit exist before acceptance of Christ as the Messiah and son of G-d? ---
**Author:** ![happywaffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ee59a6/32.png) [@happywaffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happywaffle)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/4 "2006-11-30T06:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=Analogue Skywalker] I think what the OP is asking is Did the idea or faith in the precense of the Holy Spirit exist before acceptance of Christ as the Messiah and son of G-d? [/QUOTE] And the answer to that is no. The Trinity is a uniquely Christian concept developed in the centuries shortly after Jesus’ death. The Messiah was predicted throughout the Old Testament (and still is, according to Judaism) but he doesn’t complete a Jewish Trinity. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/5 "2006-11-30T06:26:25Z")
[QUOTE=Analogue Skywalker] I think what the OP is asking is Did the idea or faith in the precense of the Holy Spirit exist before acceptance of Christ as the Messiah and son of G-d? [/QUOTE] I think the OP means exactly what he says. The question couldn’t have been more plain and Polycarp answered it fully. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/6 "2006-11-30T08:40:12Z")
Basically, they were like one of those metal bands that has been hanging around each other since they were kids, but only gave themselves an official name when they became teens and one of them got a car and a professional drumset. (in this case it was the physical birth of Jesus. Same thing though) At least that’s how I think of it. ---
**Author:** ![ChipsNDip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@ChipsNDip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChipsNDip)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-jesus-was-born-was-the-trinity-a-duo/382279/7 "2006-11-30T15:54:43Z")
[QUOTE=Rigamarole] Basically, they were like one of those metal bands that has been hanging around each other since they were kids, but only gave themselves an official name when they became teens and one of them got a car and a professional drumset. (in this case it was the physical birth of Jesus. Same thing though) At least that’s how I think of it. [/QUOTE] 🙂 I think most age-old theological and philosophical questions can be explained and understood easily when referencing metal bands.