# Before Lilith, there was.............Al? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024 "2003-02-28T00:30:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mr.splitfoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@mr.splitfoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.splitfoot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/1 "2003-02-28T00:30:03Z")
I’m sure we’re all overly familiar with Lilith and the tale of Adams first wife. But I’ve found one reference in a book that says there is a “myth” that she was the second wife. The first wife was an Al, (apparently cousin to the Djinn and such) made of fire, and Adam would not touch her because she was not like him. If anybody can find any additional information on this (I’m looking through the mounds of boxes of books right now, trying to find the reference above) please help! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/2 "2003-02-28T01:52:09Z")
“And you can call me Al…” Never heard of it. It’s likely to be apocryphical, even if it is a genuine period myth. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/3 "2003-02-28T02:00:09Z")
Despite years of bottom-dragging literature, history, and mythology I have never heard anything close to this. Might the “reference book” been a fantasy novel or short story collection? ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/4 "2003-02-28T02:05:50Z")
There’s another story, which occurs in Hebrew mythology. You can see it [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html). This is a brief excerpt from it: > [@](#): > > Undismayed by His failure to give Adam a suitable helpmeet, God tried again, and let him watch while he built up a woman’s anatomy: using bones, tissues, muscles, blood and glandular secretions, then covering the whole with skin and adding tufts of hair in places. The sight caused Adam such disgust that even when this woman, the First Eve, stood there in her full beauty, he felt an invincible repugnance. God knew that He had failed once more, and took the First Eve away. Where she went, nobody knows for certain. According to the website that’s a later story, though I’m not sure when it was first told. ---
**Author:** ![mr.splitfoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@mr.splitfoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.splitfoot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/5 "2003-02-28T02:28:50Z")
The book wasn’t fiction. It’s called a field guide to demons fairies fallen angels and other subversive spirits. The Hebrew myth sounds kind of close. I’ll keep checking. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/6 "2003-02-28T13:05:17Z")
I couldn’t get the link to work. ---
**Author:** ![RGillen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@RGillen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RGillen)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/7 "2003-02-28T13:16:27Z")
[fixed link](http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html) ---
**Author:** ![Davebear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Davebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Davebear)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/8 "2003-02-28T14:42:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mr. splitfoot \* > \*\*The book wasn’t fiction. It’s called a field guide to demons fairies fallen angels and other subversive spirits. The Hebrew myth sounds kind of close. I’ll keep checking. \*\* A \*NON-\*fiction “Field Guide” to demons, fairies, and angels?!? :dubious: Does it have an order form in the back for pixie dust? I could use some of that. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/9 "2003-02-28T14:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Davebear \* > \*\*A \*NON-\*fiction “Field Guide” to demons, fairies, and angels?!? :dubious: Does it have an order form in the back for pixie dust? I could use some of that. \*\* It could be a non-fiction look at the history of myths. I don’t think it is actually presenting itself as an _actual_ _fieldguide_, but then again, I could be wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/10 "2003-02-28T15:27:44Z")
This sounds more Arabic than Hebrew to me. In Arabic mythology there are three classes of beings: Beings of Light, Fire and Clay. The first remained true and became angels. The second rebeled and became demons. And third are the decendants of Adam. I am not familiar with this Al in the OP, but it sure sounds similar to several other creation era Arabic myths, in particular the fall of the beings of fire. ---
**Author:** ![TheLadyLion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d78d45/32.png) [@TheLadyLion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLadyLion)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/11 "2003-02-28T15:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*It could be a non-fiction look at the history of myths. I don’t think it is actually presenting itself as an _actual_ _fieldguide_, but then again, I could be wrong… \*\* You might be surprised about what some people consider fact about such creatures. Several years ago I attended a very interesting therapy conference in Sedona, AZ (I’m a mental health therapist). All seemed to be going well, until lunchtime the third day. One woman who had been very vocal and forceful (she insisted on being part of EVERY demonstration during the conference) took the podium before everyone left for lunch. She announced several things, including an upcoming trip to the British Isles for anyone interested. This trip was taking place because the king of a fairy colony over there had finally given permission for humans to meet the little people inhabiting his kingdom. She stated that normally they would keep themselves invisible, but would become visible to meet everyone making the journey that one time. There were two groups of people in the room that day: those of us who stood there incredulously listening to this with our mouths hanging open, and those who rushed up to get an application form. I took note of those among the latter group and studiously avoided them that afternoon. That creeped me out. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/12 "2003-02-28T15:52:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLadyLion \* > \*\*You might be surprised about what some people consider fact about such creatures. \*\* Actually on another messageboard I’m really starting to change my previous beliefs about what some people consider “fact”. As to your story, I just have to say-is there a mental disorder that the lady is suffering from? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/13 "2003-02-28T17:57:01Z")
Are you sure that _Al_ was the name? Is there any possibility that it was _al SOMETHING-OR-OTHER_? With the reference to djinn, I agree with **Bartman** that it sounds vaguely Arabic–and “al” is a definite article in Arabic, prefixing many words and some names. The [Encyclopedia Mythica article on Allat](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/allat.html) says > [@](#): > > An ancient mother and fertility goddess of the pre-Islamic Arabs. Her name means “the Goddess”. This mythic figure of great antiquity is one (she represented the earth and its fruits) of the trinity of desert goddesses named in the Koran; Al-Uzza (goddess of the morning star) and Menat (goddess of fate and time) being the others. And gives Other names as Allatu Al-lat A web search of “al-Lat” with “Adam” turns up, in the first page ot two, either discussions of Islamic history or legends in which the goddess and Adam are discussed separately or Fundamentalist Christian (and one Hindu) attacks on Islam. I did not find a reference to the legend in the OP. Other searches were no more successful. I have a vague memory of reading a story in which Adam is brought a succession of potential helpmeets between the animals and Eve, and one of them might have been a daemon separate from Lilith, but I have no memory of the details and do not remember whether the story I read was from the Midrash, from Islamic lore, from Gnostic tales, or simply invented as a story. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/14 "2003-02-28T18:13:31Z")
Despite the font, I keep reading ‘the first wife was an AI’, i.e. a robot (don’t get them wet, and never ever feed them spinach.) At least we’re not using typewriters; he could have been married to steak sauce. ---
**Author:** ![mr.splitfoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@mr.splitfoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.splitfoot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/15 "2003-02-28T21:03:26Z")
Ok, ok…not “non-fiction” but yes, a study of the myths of ancient pasts. I really don’t think it intends itself to be an actual field guide, but after reading about the trip to the British Isles, I could definately be wrong! But as far as I can tell, there is just the two letters AL. A being of fire. Thanks for all the input so far, guys. ---
**Author:** ![jonfromdenver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@jonfromdenver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonfromdenver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/16 "2003-02-28T22:41:23Z")
It’s a far stretch, but the only thing I can come up with is that since this is a being “made of fire”, then it could be referring to the fallen archangel Mastema, who tempted Abraham on Mount Moriah. He was made of fire, and apparently “joined” himself with Lilith so that she could escape mortality. Far stretch, yes, but at least it has to do with Lilith/Adam. What really makes no sense is the “Al” part of the story. Never heard of it. A google search brought up [this weird rant](http://www.kindredx.net/pages/thelema/Hunt%20for%20ALIM.pdf) about some ALIM formula where AL = Satan/Eve, IM = Adam/Lilith but the whole page really makes no sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/17 "2003-02-28T23:00:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mr. splitfoot \* > \*\*The book wasn’t fiction. It’s called a field guide to demons fairies fallen angels and other subversive spirits. The Hebrew myth sounds kind of close. I’ll keep checking. \*\* Tobin’s Spirit Guide, perhaps? (I’ll be interested to see what anyone can dig up on all of this.) ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/18 "2003-02-28T23:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mr. splitfoot \* > \*\*The book wasn’t fiction. It’s called a field guide to demons fairies fallen angels and other subversive spirits. The Hebrew myth sounds kind of close. I’ll keep checking. \*\* i need to get one of those. There is a guy with a goat’s head and three legs who always calls me a wanker that lives in a tree in our yard. I should look him up in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Indefatigable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9d8465/32.png) [@Indefatigable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indefatigable)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/19 "2003-03-01T00:03:10Z")
\*…God tried again, and let him watch while he built up a woman’s anatomy: using bones, tissues, muscles, blood and glandular secretions, then covering the whole with skin and adding tufts of hair in places. \* That sounds like some the product of some tongue-in-cheek humour writer, if you ask me… Adam’s woman is just a normal flesh-and-blood person, and because he knows this, he’s disgusted by her (as he presumably wouldn’t be if he were presented with a ready-made Barbie-doll woman). ---
**Author:** ![Sue\_Duhnym](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@Sue\_Duhnym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sue_Duhnym)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024/20 "2003-03-01T02:49:34Z")
Well, I found this stuff, all about Lilith, [here.](http://www.lilith.it/liliten.html) > [@](#): > > Lilith is often associated to the fire, as she has been described as a beautiful creature from head to navel, but as a “burning fire” from navel to toe. and > [@](#): > > She went near the Red Sea and coupled with the Djinns, giving birth to a lot of demonic children (called Lilim). I also found some references to Al-Jinn (The Jinn) described [here](http://www.shirazi.org.uk/072%20al-jinn.htm) as: > [@](#): > > …that a body of the jinn have listened… A party from amongst the jinn had listened to the Quran. The jinn are a creation from fire, insubstantial like the air. They are able to take form in solid bodies, like human bodies. I don’t know if that helps but maybe someone can go furthur with it. I’m way outta my league. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/before-lilith-there-was-al/158024.md?page=2)