# "Beg the question"? I beg to differ. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 26, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403 "2003-04-26T23:35:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/1 "2003-04-26T23:35:11Z")
“Beg the question” is the darling phrase of the moment. There was a time you’d never hear it outside of debating societies and cocktail parties attended by Dick Cavett or George Plimpton. Ever. But then about a year ago it began to creep into the lingo of the masses. I hear it in commercials and newscasts and business chitchat at least once a day. Great, I thought, I like it when obscure and creeky old turns-of-phrase get dusted off for contemporary use. Except, they all use it incorrectly. Ever. Single. Time. Morons. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/91b2a8/32.png) [@Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_of_Sandwhich)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/2 "2003-04-26T23:42:02Z")
This bothers me too. It was very demoralizing to hear Alex Trebeck using it incorrectly on a recent Jeopardy! episode. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/3 "2003-04-27T00:23:29Z")
It won’t be long, I suppose, before the wrong usage becomes proper coinage. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/4 "2003-04-27T00:37:35Z")
Thing is, the original meaning of the phrase is non-intuitive, while the ‘popular’ meaning is more intuitive. At least, that’s how it looks to me. I’ve never been able to understand how ‘begging the question’ refers to “taking for granted or assuming the thing that you are setting out to prove.” ([Link](http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-beg1.htm)) It’s an old form of the word, I presume, preserved only in that one idiom. For what it’s worth, I do understand the difference, and attempt to use ‘raise the question’ rather than beg, it doesn’t really bother me when others use it. It _does_ sound natural in that usage, to me. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/5 "2003-04-27T17:07:45Z")
I fear we’ve long since reached the point where the “wrong” usage has become the “right” usage. It seems inevitable given the naturalness of the “wrong” interpretation. Which begs the question ( 😉 ), what phrase are we going to use for what used to be the proper usage of “to beg the question”? “You, sir, have assumed the answer to the question you purport to be raising!” I don’t think it will fly. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/6 "2003-04-27T19:15:33Z")
A circular argument is only a special case of the begged question. A begged question is one in which, in the general case, the conclusion is at least as questionable as the assumptions. It quite literally begs the question. I don’t see the issue. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/7 "2003-04-27T19:28:19Z")
The sad thing is that “raises the question” is the correct phrase, makes more sense, and is the same number of syllables. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/8 "2003-04-27T19:34:22Z")
A pet hate of mine too. It’s like “disinterested” being used as a synonym for “uninterested”. Or “refute” used to mean “reject, deny” which have plenty of perfectly adequate synonyms. Ah well, at least _we_ know differently. Next up: “It’s the exception that proves the rule”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Grasshopper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f19dbf/32.png) [@Grasshopper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grasshopper)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/9 "2003-04-27T19:46:07Z")
O-oh, the people I’ve tried explaining this to who just won’t believe me. “This really begs the question - what is the right thing to do?” “Oh no, actually ‘begs the question’ doesn’t mean that, it means to improperly take for gra-” “Oh, yes it does. It means it begs the question, get it?” “Gah.” ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/10 "2003-04-27T20:03:54Z")
Yah. I’m there also, **Grasshopper** (the actual poster’s name, not a Kung Fu reference). I use it improperly-properly also. Which begs the question, gah! If there is an unstated premise just waiting to be pounced on, I think the phrase is properly used. It is not wrong to simply phrase it as an actual question. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/11 "2003-04-27T21:19:21Z")
I can kind of see how begging is involved in the fallacy, but ‘begging the question’ strikes me as strange. I could see ‘begging for the assumption’ as in asking people to assume the same things you’re assuming, but ‘begging the question’ doesn’t seem to explain the concept. Asking people to assume the same question you’re assuming? This is, I presume, why people have shifted to using it as ‘raises the question’. I’m sure someone here can explain why begging the question is called just that, but on the surface, it makes eminently more sense to use it in the sense of raising the question. And while it’s the same number of syllables, ‘beg’ is definitely easier to say than ‘raise’, makes the same amount of sense to most people, and captures the intent well. So it’s not too surprising most people will go for that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/12 "2003-04-27T21:32:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*A circular argument is only a special case of the begged question. A begged question is one in which, in the general case, the conclusion is at least as questionable as the assumptions. It quite literally begs the question. > \*\* Literally? Wow. You mean the argument gets down on its hands and knees and pitifully requests the question? That is literally jaw-dropping! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/13 "2003-04-27T23:42:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*The sad thing is that “raises the question” is the correct phrase, makes more sense, and is the same number of syllables. > > Oh well. \*\* The same number of syllables? :dubious: I think not. ---
**Author:** ![stypticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@stypticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stypticus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/14 "2003-04-28T00:34:24Z")
…Close enough for government work. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/15 "2003-04-28T00:48:38Z")
**Cecil Adams** on Begging for it: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/020524.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/020524.html) > [@](#): > > On the subject of begging the question, it occurred to me to say “invite” or “demand” lest I hear from persons such as yourself. But “beg” had the element of puppy-dog enthusiasm I was after. I was using these words in a manner congruent with their plain meaning, and while they also happen to be the term for a certain logical fallacy, I figured that no one would misunderstand my intent. And no one has. I recognize, however, that people need an outlet for their hostility, and better this than mailbox bombs. So, has your stress been reduced? Good. Now piss off. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/16 "2003-04-28T10:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Except, they all use it incorrectly. > > Ever. Single. Time. > > Morons. Um, that’s _every_. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/17 "2003-04-28T11:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **erislover** \* > A circular argument is only a special case of the begged question. A begged question is one in which, in the general case, the conclusion is at least as questionable as the assumptions. It quite literally begs the question. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Bryan Ekers** \* > Literally? Wow. You mean the argument gets down on its hands and knees and pitifully requests the question? > > That is literally jaw-dropping! **erislover** ’s explanation makes perfect sense to me: Beg = To ask (someone) for (something or to differ). ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/18 "2003-04-28T17:44:48Z")
From [this](http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-beg1.htm) cite: > [@](#): > > The original sense is of a logical fallacy, of taking for granted or assuming the thing that you are setting out to prove. To take an example, you might say that lying is wrong because we ought always to tell the truth. That’s a circular argument and makes no sense. Another instance is to argue that democracy must be the best form of government because the majority is always right. The fallacy was described by Aristotle in his book on logic in about 350BC. His Greek name for it was turned into Latin as petitio principii and then into English in 1581 as beg the question. Most of our problems arise because the person who translated it made a hash of it. The Latin might better be translated as “laying claim to the principle”. The cite has other information about the usage and is an interesting read. ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/19 "2003-04-28T18:00:07Z")
Wow, have I been using it wrong all this time? Here’s my understanding of the usage of the phrase: (Mother looks in cookie jar, sees it is nearly empty, speaks to child) "I put 5 cookies in here yesterday, today there’s only one in there. I didn’t take any. You say you didn’t take any, so that begs the question, ‘What happened to the other 4 cookies?’ " Is this correct usage or not? The phrase “begs the question” has always meant to me that the situation is such that you cannot help but ask the question, being obviously in need of answering. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403/20 "2003-04-28T18:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\ ***erislover** ’s explanation makes perfect sense to me: Beg = To ask (someone) for (something or to differ). \*\* The irony, of course, is that while the OP is complaining about the misuse of the phrase “begging the question”, erislover committed the much more common error of misusing the word “literally”. While erislover’s meaning might have been clear, it is not literally true that a circular argument can beg for _anything_, since a circular argument is kinda, y’know, a verbal construct and not an animated creature with knees or a larynx or anything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beg-the-question-i-beg-to-differ/171403.md?page=2)