# Begging the question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 3, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779 "2016-03-03T01:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/41 "2016-03-04T17:39:11Z")
I find it rather interesting that people who get hung up on etymological history never have a problem with December being the twelfth month of the year. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/42 "2016-03-04T19:44:00Z")
… or that Saturday is the day set aside to worship and celebrate … ummm … nevermind … ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/43 "2016-03-04T23:19:41Z")
Adar is the 12th month, and Shabbes is the day of worship and celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/44 "2016-03-05T00:27:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Plus, “begging the question” in its original, “correct” meaning is a useful term. I don’t want to have to give it up. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, there’s the slippery slope that if we tolerate the people who use it in place of “RAISE the question”, eventually no one will realize that the logical fallacy of assuming your conclusion within your premise is an actuaal thing, because we won’t have a term that means _that_, unambiguously and exclusively. How about, “You are assuming your conclusion,”? > [@watchwolf49](#): > > I don’t follow … where is the fallacy in “IF you place the right numbers, THEN you will win the lottery”? It shouldn’t matter if the corollary is also true “IF you win the lottery, THEN you placed the right numbers” Both of these statements take a step in some direction. > > Now say “IF you win the lottery, THEN you’ve won the lottery”, we do not take a step … we’re “begging the question” in a figurative way. The statement was “I have a sure-fire method for winning the lottery.” Most people would take that to mean a technique for picking the right numbers. So to then state that the method is to put the right numbers on the form skips the important step that the method needs to provide - how to pick the right numbers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/45 "2016-03-05T04:50:04Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I was understanding **TriPolar** to mean that “to raise the question” was the _original_ meaning of the phrase (“the common one,” as opposed to “the name of the fallacy”), which is what I was questioning. Did I misunderstand? As far as I can determine, he’s simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/46 "2016-03-05T13:10:24Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > As far as I can determine, he’s simply wrong. I don’t think ‘raise the question’ was the original meaning, though I’m not sure what Thudlow is saying there, but ‘raise the question’ is the clear interpretation of the phrase, something obvious to the vast majority of English speaking people. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/47 "2016-03-05T14:17:04Z")
“The original phrase used by Aristotle from which _begging the question_ descends is: τὸ ἐξ ἀρχῆς (or sometimes ἐν ἀρχῇ) αἰτεῖν, _asking for the initial thing_.” – [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/48 "2016-03-06T09:45:54Z")
When a the original meaning and the newly popular meaning of a phrase get muddled in this way, my preference is to avoid/abandon the phrase. Just say _that raises the question_, and say _that’s circular reasoning_ (or, _you’re taking your conclusion as a given_). ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/49 "2016-03-06T14:21:10Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > When a the original meaning and the newly popular meaning of a phrase get muddled in this way, my preference is to avoid/abandon the phrase. Just say _that raises the question_, and say _that’s circular reasoning_ (or, _you’re taking your conclusion as a given_). That begs the question of what to do with all the extra syntax lying around. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/50 "2016-03-06T16:08:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It doesn’t need to. It has a perfectly good interpretation on it’s own. Said every person defending a folk etymology, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/51 "2016-03-06T20:11:57Z")
He is not saying that is the origin of the phrase, he is saying it is how many people interpret the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Topologist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/topologist/32/3208_2.png) [@Topologist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Topologist)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/52 "2016-03-06T23:14:08Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Beg in that sense is not a transitive verb. Sure it is. But I beg forgiveness for interjecting in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/53 "2016-03-07T01:15:32Z")
> [@Topologist](#): > > Sure it is. But I beg forgiveness for interjecting in this discussion. You mean you beg _for_ forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Topologist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/topologist/32/3208_2.png) [@Topologist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Topologist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/54 "2016-03-07T01:20:28Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > You mean you beg _for_ forgiveness. No, that’s not idiomatic, and it’s awkward. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/55 "2016-03-07T01:34:19Z")
OK. Apparently back when “Petitio Principii” was translated “beg the question,” “beg” could be a transitive verb that meant “evade,” and “question” more commonly meant something it still means now, although not as commonly: “the point at hand.” Apparently the idea trying to be conveyed was that you were dodging the initial premise, the necessary first part to any properly constructed argument. Since “principii” is genitive, and means principle, and “petitio” is nominative, it means a request for a principle, so in the Middle Ages, which is where the translation is from, “begs the question” is pretty straight up. They both mean “Give me a reasonable starting point.” ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/56 "2016-03-07T01:38:21Z")
> [@Topologist](#): > > No, that’s not idiomatic, and it’s awkward. You can claim an elided preposition, but that doesn’t make the verb transitive. If “beg the question” meant “raise the question” it would need to be “beg for the question,” or “beg that the question be asked.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779/57 "2016-03-07T02:07:15Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > You mean you beg _for_ forgiveness. I beg your pardon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begging-the-question/747779.md?page=2)