# Beginning to accept that GRR Martin will never finish ASoIaF **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 27, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036 "2020-01-27T04:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/21 "2020-01-27T15:20:44Z")
From what I’ve read, “House of the Dragon” is a prequel \*series \*on HBO, not another book. And I’d guess it’s based on _“Fire and Blood”_ too. My suspicion is that GRRM is probably finished, or close to finished with “Winds of Winter”, but there’s probably some reason he hasn’t released it yet. I’d guess he didn’t release it during the TV show run, so as not to cause confusion / comparison with the TV show, and I’m also speculating that he’s sitting on it a little longer to let the dust settle/flames to die down after the ending of the TV show. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/22 "2020-01-27T17:53:53Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I don’t think it would be that much of a loss. I thought the first three books of the Ice and Fire saga were wonderful, but the last two IMO were meh. I don’t see why the quality wouldn’t continue to decline when it’s so obvious that he considers them a chore. I agree, and would add that it’s clear that, for whatever reason, he simply can’t stop spinning out new characters and plot threads. If this was actually going to be a 7-book series, then three initial books that gradually expand the cast, the setting, and the story would make sense. Book 4 would be the middle of the series, so it would be necessary to turn the corner and start moving characters in the direction of the climax, and shutting down minor plot lines. Instead, _Feast_ and _Dance_ have introduced countless new major and minor characters, and dozens of new plot threads. By the end of _Dance_ the characters are scattered in more different places than ever before, there a half dozen battles that are about to happen but haven’t happened yet, and an entire new major plot line is introduced with Aegon’s invasion of Westeros. Oh, and the dragons have escaped and gone rogue, and there’s what happened in the epilogue, and… There’s simply no way that this could all be wrapped up in only two more books. George started out writing three great books and got an ocean of praise for them. But now he seems determined to show that he can write the biggest, most sprawling series ever and continually show off new twists that nobody saw coming, without any idea of how to wrap it all up. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/23 "2020-01-27T18:11:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > My suspicion is that GRRM is probably finished, or close to finished with “Winds of Winter”, but there’s probably some reason he hasn’t released it yet. I’d guess he didn’t release it during the TV show run, so as not to cause confusion / comparison with the TV show, and I’m also speculating that he’s sitting on it a little longer to let the dust settle/flames to die down after the ending of the TV show. Ah yes, like he was waiting until the show had caught up with the books, then overtaken the books, then got to its final season, then finished its final season, then six months after its disappointing final season, THEN, THIS TIME, he’d release it. Nope. They’re not done. The last books isn’t going to get released at the same time as the next one either, another fantasy of people who have been waiting for 9 years for this one. We only got the A Dance With Dragons because his publisher blackmailed him into producing a book to coincide with the first season, in case it was a complete flop and at least they got something out of it. An unfinished book, with two battles cut at least, as was chapters like Mercy, and a supposed surprising one to do with Sansa. So that one barely counts. And extrapolating the release dates, WOW should have been released about 14 months ago. With the final book due end of September 2027. He’s blitzed past that date. I don’t expect to see WOW. At all. I made peace with that about five years ago. I do however, find it tedious that Martin announces that something great will happen, and it will be another goddamn history of the bloody targs. I think he’s simply one of the ultimate trolls of the literate world… ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/24 "2020-01-27T18:16:23Z")
BTW, this was the last false alarm [Winds of Winter release date very soon?](https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1212823/Winds-of-Winter-release-date-George-RR-Martin-official-website-Game-of-Thrones-ASOIAF). It was the paperback edition of Fire and Blood. I now refer to him as “Famous Wildcats editor”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/25 "2020-01-27T20:50:51Z")
Just out of curiosity, why would it “finish”? Unless the last book describes how the entire “The Known World” (as it apparently is called, having no specific planetary name) is destroyed, won’t the “game” continue indefinitely with characters dying and being replaced, as has been the case for dynasties throughout human history? The story of Tyrion Lannister specifically would end with his death, I assume, but in-universe, life would go on, no? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/26 "2020-01-27T20:57:15Z")
He does not seem like a guy who would let another author finish the story. Maybe it would happen after he dies if his widow OKs it. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/27 "2020-01-27T21:20:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just out of curiosity, why would it “finish”? Unless the last book describes how the entire “The Known World” (as it apparently is called, having no specific planetary name) is destroyed, won’t the “game” continue indefinitely with characters dying and being replaced, as has been the case for dynasties throughout human history? The story of Tyrion Lannister specifically would end with his death, I assume, but in-universe, life would go on, no? What a strange comment. It’s too bad Tolkein never finished writing Lord of the Rings. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/28 "2020-01-27T21:31:40Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > What a strange comment. > > It’s too bad Tolkein never finished writing Lord of the Rings. As I understand it, though, LotR had a specific story arc, i.e. get the ring to the volcano. Is ASoIaF based on a similarly specific plot, i.e. defeat the Night King and his White Walkers? I gather it’s gone somewhat beyond that, so if it didn’t “end” there, why should it end anywhere? At what point, if any, could there be a “…and they lived happily ever after” line, saying the epic is done, no more needs to be said? Now, if the question is when will Martin stop writing, that’s a little different. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/29 "2020-01-27T22:17:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As I understand it, though, LotR had a specific story arc, i.e. get the ring to the volcano. Is ASoIaF based on a similarly specific plot, i.e. defeat the Night King and his White Walkers? I gather it’s gone somewhat beyond that, so if it didn’t “end” there, why should it end anywhere? At what point, if any, could there be a “…and they lived happily ever after” line, saying the epic is done, no more needs to be said? Well it is called A Song of Ice and Fire for a reason ;). There are two Ice and Fires involved… Dragons vs. the Others & Daenerys vs. Jon Snow. So the Song would end when those conflicts are resolved. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/30 "2020-01-28T01:53:15Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > . . . I’ve also read fanfic on . . . Miles Vorkosigan that I enjoyed as much or more than the originals. Link Please? 😃 (Wait, this isn’t that pr0n fanfic is it? That I wouldn’t like.) > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As I understand it, though, LotR had a specific story arc, i.e. get the ring to the volcano. Is ASoIaF based on a similarly specific plot, i.e. defeat the Night King and his White Walkers? I gather it’s gone somewhat beyond that, so if it didn’t “end” there, why should it end anywhere? At what point, if any, could there be a “…and they lived happily ever after” line, saying the epic is done, no more needs to be said? > > Now, if the question is when will Martin stop writing, that’s a little different. Well, we are waiting on humanity to somehow survive the attack of the Others, and for Danaerys to somehow “break the wheel” of political bloodshed. When those two things are sewn up I think we’re done. Mind you, I could go on for hours about the various subplots that needs closing, some of which were left open by HBO, others never even got onscreen. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/31 "2020-01-28T03:01:56Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Link Please? 😃 (Wait, this isn’t that pr0n fanfic is it? That I wouldn’t like.) No porn, I promise. This is a novel-length Vorkosigan story, and the same author has some shorter ones, including a Vor version of Pride and Prejudice. Also, as I said above, an excellent Honor Harrington novel. > **[Forward Momentum - Bracketyjack - Vorkosigan Saga - Lois McMaster Bujold...](https://archiveofourown.org/works/256024?view_full_work=true)** > > An Archive of Our Own, a project of the > Organization for Transformative Works ETA: note that this is set shortly after _Winterfair Gifts,_ and departs from the canon at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/32 "2020-01-28T04:16:20Z")
[Moderating] I know I would have been really annoyed, had that particular _Dresden Files_ plot point been spoiled for me, before I read it. So I’ve added spoiler tags to the two posts that mentioned it. Though, yes, that was a truly epic plot point, and I’m really eager to see some follow-up on it. And how was there not a thread here already announcing that the new book was coming? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/33 "2020-01-28T05:18:02Z")
I’ve said before, my working hypothesis is the series has taken a life of its own and turned on its creator, who now cannot make himself satisfied with what direction the next installment is taking. And of course that raises the spectre of GRR’s notes being BrianHerberted after he’s gone. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/34 "2020-01-28T08:05:55Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Well it is called A Song of Ice and Fire for a reason ;)… Where’s the song? I just got the book. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/35 "2020-01-28T09:33:09Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Where’s the song? I just got the book. 😃 Have you tried holding it to your ear? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/36 "2020-01-28T11:27:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I wouldn’t put Butcher in the same category as Martin and Rothfuss; he didn’t slow down, and the quality of his books didn’t deteriorate (the last two were IMHO among the best of the series). He wrote 12 books in 15 years, and then just stopped. That seems to indicate some external reason, and not that he grew tired of the series or that he doesn’t know how to finish it. The external reasons were a somewhat nasty divorce, a new relationship, having to relocate and apparently some sort of serious issue with the new location, the details of which I’m not familiar with. In other words, a lot of stuff happened in real life that needed his attention and made writing difficult. Personally, I’d rather Butcher take a couple of years to sort out his personal life so when he gets back to writing he puts out quality work instead of hacked slush. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/37 "2020-01-28T12:58:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Moderating] > > I know I would have been really annoyed, had that particular _Dresden Files_ plot point been spoiled for me, before I read it. So I’ve added spoiler tags to the two posts that mentioned it. > > Though, yes, that was a truly epic plot point, and I’m really eager to see some follow-up on it. And how was there not a thread here already announcing that the new book was coming? My bad, I wasn’t thinking…I guess I need to learn how to use spoiler tags now… ---
**Author:** ![Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Backwater_Under_Duck)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/38 "2020-01-29T02:40:18Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I’ve said before, my working hypothesis is the series has taken a life of its own and turned on its creator, who now cannot make himself satisfied with what direction the next installment is taking. > > And of course that raises the spectre of GRR’s notes being BrianHerberted after he’s gone. It’s a life on it’s own that’s going to end up shacking up with a certain mouse. Lucas sold it out, why shouldn’t GRR. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/39 "2020-01-29T02:48:56Z")
> [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](#): > > It’s a life on it’s own that’s going to end up shacking up with a certain mouse. Lucas sold it out, why shouldn’t GRR. He already sold out. To HBO. About ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036/40 "2020-01-30T04:14:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I agree, and would add that it’s clear that, for whatever reason, he simply can’t stop spinning out new characters and plot threads. If this was actually going to be a 7-book series, then three initial books that gradually expand the cast, the setting, and the story would make sense. Book 4 would be the middle of the series, so it would be necessary to turn the corner and start moving characters in the direction of the climax, and shutting down minor plot lines. > > Instead, _Feast_ and _Dance_ have introduced countless new major and minor characters, and dozens of new plot threads. I faithfully read the first few books but I gave up on Dance about 1/3rd in because not only did he introduce a bunch of new characters and plots, they were all awfully boring ones too. I realized I gave not one crap about the new people or places, and it didn’t seem like an end was in sight of these pointless new tangents so I sent the book back to the library and haven’t tried again since. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/beginning-to-accept-that-grr-martin-will-never-finish-asoiaf/847036.md?page=3)