# Begs the quesiton
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 26, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793 "2008-03-26T14:32:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/1 "2008-03-26T14:32:54Z")
> [@](#):
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> In what seems like a scare tactic, these videos have little to do with the eating disorders, anxiety and drug problems of the program’s mainly heterosexual participants, which begs the question, is Mercy Ministries similar to an ex-gay program?
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> This whole issue speaks to Obama’s judgment or lack thereof. It begs the question, “how can Obama have such a close association with someone for 20 years and not know him any better than that?” Obama says he strongly disagrees with Wright’s views. Yet, not only has he not disassociated himself from the reverend, he hasn’t even confronted the reverend. You have to ask yourself, “Does Barack Obama have the judgment necessary to be President?” If he has the judgment, if he knew he should disassociate himself from the Rev. Wright and didn’t, does Obama have the guts to confront the difficult issues?
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> At the time of this article, no foreign government or Olympic committee has called for a boycott, however, one would not be without precedent. At the 1996 Atlanta Games, sponsors faced boycott calls after a county where the beach volleyball event was to be held enacted a measure deemed anti-gay. In Sydney in 2000, there were protests about the environment and Australian aboriginal rights. Though none of these issues raged on the scale of the Tibet protests, said to be the largest public riots in the region in decades, public perception on this grand a scale begs the question of how much governments will tolerate before they begin to question their perceived toleration of national suppression.
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> Some of us even argue that to be a Somali one has to first of all be a Muslim.
> Of course when one takes this argument to it’s logical extension, then anyone who is a Muslim becomes a Somali citizen by default ( if one wishes to be so, of course), but then this begs the question why is it so when other Muslim countries are not responding in kind to this crazy unsolicited Utopian offer?
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> I am one of many high school teachers at the forefront of curriculum change who for years have argued that the best way to lower dropout rates in high school is to ensure that those moving from one educational institution to another have the requisite skills to succeed. Universities and professional institutions do that by having minimum entry requirements.
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> Most importantly, the success of this program begs the question as to whether this government and future provincial governments will continue to provide and even expand where necessary upon the resources and experts to ensure that the neediest children in the early years continue to have a fair chance to succeed in school.
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> North Carolina, in particular leads the way in farm acres lost among all states. Georgia is the third fastest growing state in population, trailing only Texas and California. Loss of acreage and so many good, profitable options for crops begs the question: Where are all these grain, cotton and peanut acres coming from?
Such examples beg the question, have style and usage guides become illegal?
[http://www.garoweonline.com/artman2/publish/Opinion\_20/Somalia\_Crisis\_of\_Identity.shtml](http://www.garoweonline.com/artman2/publish/Opinion_20/Somalia_Crisis_of_Identity.shtml)
> **[Breaking News - Headlines & Top Stories | The Star](https://www.thestar.com/)**
>
> thestar.com is one of Canada's largest online news sites and 100% Canadian-owned. Live news, investigations, politics, sports and the heartbeat of Toronto, Canada's largest city.
[http://sxnews.e-p.net.au/feature/in-the-name-of-mercy-2685.html](http://sxnews.e-p.net.au/feature/in-the-name-of-mercy-2685.html)
[http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080325/OPINION0106/803250307/1007/OPINION](http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080325/OPINION0106/803250307/1007/OPINION)
[http://southeastfarmpress.com/grains/crop-choices-0326/](http://southeastfarmpress.com/grains/crop-choices-0326/)
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### Author:  [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/2 "2008-03-26T14:39:38Z")
Is it Guadere’s law that states you will spell something wrong when you complain about anything related to word usage?
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### Author:  [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/3 "2008-03-26T14:41:39Z")
I don’t have three hours to wade through all that to figure out what your point/question is, but assuming it’s relating to grammar/style, do you really think such a topic is going to get so heated that it belongs in this forum?
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### Author:  [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/4 "2008-03-26T14:43:08Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Is it Guadere’s law that states you will spell something wrong when you complain about anything related to word usage?
[/QUOTE]
I thought Gaudere’s Law was that some Mod would turn into a Nazi by the end of the thread…
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/5 "2008-03-26T14:43:28Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Is it Guadere’s law that states you will spell something wrong when you complain about anything related to word usage?
[/QUOTE]
Probably, but I do not have a staff of editors helping me.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/6 "2008-03-26T14:44:24Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Such examples beg the question, have style and usage guides become illegal?
[/QUOTE]
This is going to become a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist debate within a few minutes, but once in a while I do remind people what “begging the question” originally means. It’s a fallacy that deserves it’s own name in my opinion.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/7 "2008-03-26T14:44:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> ]Is it Guadere’s law that states you will spell something wrong when you complain about anything related to word usage?
It was “question.”
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/8 "2008-03-26T14:47:22Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Is it **Guadere’s** law that states you will spell something wrong when you complain about anything related to word usage?
[my bolding]
[/QUOTE]
It also frequently strikes when you call attention to it! It’s kind of a scary law, really.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/9 "2008-03-26T14:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Such examples beg the question, have style and usage guides become illegal?
[/QUOTE]
For those who might need brushing up on their Grammar Nazi Party Doctrine, here’s a relatively accessible explanation of what the OP’s complaint is about:
[Safire on “begging the question”](http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/editorial/98/07/26/7-26-safire.0-0.html)
Sailboat
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/10 "2008-03-26T15:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23]
It also frequently strikes when you call attention to it! It’s kind of a scary law, really.
[/QUOTE]
IME, 90% of the invocations of Gudere’s law are intentionally misspelled…
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/11 "2008-03-26T15:23:58Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23]
It’s a fallacy that deserves **it’s** own name in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]
Ouch!
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### Author:  [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/12 "2008-03-26T15:32:14Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic]
IME, 90% of the invocations of Gudere’s law are intentionally misspelled…
[/QUOTE]
There are countless spelling variations of “Godear”, none of which are correct. 🆒
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### Author:  [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/13 "2008-03-26T15:58:01Z")
This usage is acceptable now, so there is nothing wrong with doing so.
😉
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### Author:  [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/14 "2008-03-26T16:06:55Z")
Heh. I was railing against my students about this mis-usage just a few days ago.
This and the mis-use of _per se_ are my pet peeves.
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### Author:  [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/15 "2008-03-26T16:08:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sailboat]
For those who might need brushing up on their Grammar Nazi Party Doctrine, here’s a relatively accessible explanation of what the OP’s complaint is about:
[Safire on “begging the question”](http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/editorial/98/07/26/7-26-safire.0-0.html)
Sailboat
[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen this objection hundreds of times, and it never makes sense.
For one, “this begs the question” as used in the excerpts provided by the OP makes perfect sense when the phrase is parsed literally - in every case there is an obvious question that needs asking.
For two, Safire has to go out of his way to avoid using the phrase, with his usage of “This demands that a question be asked…”, a far clumsier phrase, IMO.
For three, anybody who cannot differentiate between the use of the term in the examples provided, and the concept of _petitio principii_, is a moron.
Finally, the article begs the question, when it asserts that the common, idiomatic usage of the phrase _must_ have been derived from a mistaken understanding of Aristotle’s usage. Is there actually any evidence of this?
I realize you don’t hold the views I’m objecting to.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/16 "2008-03-26T16:09:06Z")
The only people who know the _proper_ usage are those who never use the term. The true _begs the question_ is not the _begs the question_ that can be used.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/17 "2008-03-26T16:11:02Z")
[QUOTE=Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party]
I’ve seen this objection hundreds of times, and it never makes sense.
For one, “this begs the question” as used in the excerpts provided by the OP makes perfect sense when the phrase is parsed literally - in every case there is an obvious question that needs asking.
For two, Safire has to go out of their way to avoid using the phrase, with his usage of “This demands that a question be asked…”, a far clumsier phrase, IMO.
For three, anybody who cannot differentiate between the use of the term in the examples provided, and the concept of _petitio principii_, is a moron.
Finally, the article begs the question, when it asserts that the common, idiomatic usage of the phrase _must_ have been derived from a mistaken understanding of Aristotle’s usage. Is there actually any evidence of this?
I realize you don’t hold the views I’m objecting to.
[/QUOTE]
So you’re saying a phrase can legitimately mean two different things in different circumstances? What are you? A Communist?
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### Author:  [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/18 "2008-03-26T16:28:49Z")
**Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** said most everything I was going to say.
I will that there are at least two other common, easily understood, equally efficient phrases that match the prescriptivist meaning of “begging the question”, those being “dodging the question” and “avoiding the question”. If one wanted to get creative, one might even “eschew the question” or “duck the question”. There is, as far as I’m aware, no such equivalent of the literal (and, these days, descriptivist) meaning of “begging the question”; the best I can come up with off the top of my head is “provoking the question”, which sounds a bit too forced for my liking.
I’ll also throw in the old standby observation that not liking common word usages isn’t going to make them go away, so your choices are to either get used to them or continue pissing into the wind. The only time I’ll support even attempting to turn the tides is when adoption of the new usage results in an awkward loss of distinction (see _literal_; as it stands, if we want to be clear, we’re left to say things like: “No, really, seriously, his head actually did explode. Like a bomb, BOOM!”)…and even in those cases, I recognize that it’s largely futile, and it will only be a matter of time before a new linguistic convention shows up to fill the place of the old one.
With “begging the question”, though, not only does insisting on the ‘offical’ definition not prevent this sort of awkwardness, it actively creates it, as demonstrated above. To the fiery pits of hell with it, I say.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/19 "2008-03-26T16:39:19Z")
[QUOTE=Roland Orzabal]
**Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** said most everything I was going to say.
I will that there are at least two other common, easily understood, equally efficient phrases that match the prescriptivist meaning of “begging the question”, those being “dodging the question” and “avoiding the question”. If one wanted to get creative, one might even “eschew the question” or “duck the question”.
[/QUOTE]
That’s not what the prescriptivist meaning _is_.
It’s actually ‘assuming the conclusion’.
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### Author:  [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/20 "2008-03-26T17:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Heh. I was railing against my students about this mis-usage just a few days ago.
This and the mis-use of _per se_ are my pet peeves.
[/QUOTE]
What would be an example of misusing _per se_?
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