# Begs the quesiton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793 "2008-03-26T14:32:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/81 "2008-03-28T00:49:21Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] One writer’s take: [The Straight Dope by Cecil Adams: Would I find “Vaudeville” on a map?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/020524.html) [/QUOTE] Hopefully, Mr. Adams will be more careful with his usage in the future; that is, I hope he will see the light. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/82 "2008-03-28T01:46:45Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Hopefully, Mr. Adams will be more careful with his usage in the future; that is, I hope he will see the light. [/QUOTE] Come on, now you are just being willfully ignorant. Which, of course, just begs the question: why? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/83 "2008-03-28T02:58:09Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] I couldn’t disagree more. I’m an academic, and I would really be surprised if I were “corrected” about this. [/QUOTE] What field? ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/84 "2008-03-28T03:11:29Z")
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee] What field? [/QUOTE] Math ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/85 "2008-03-28T03:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] Math [/QUOTE] Okay, that makes more sense. Because in the humanities you’d _definitely_ be corrected. Especially in philosophy, but also in literature, since when it’s being used it’s referring to a specific fallacy. Or, what **Frylock** said. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/86 "2008-03-28T03:31:45Z")
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee] Okay, that makes more sense. Because in the humanities you’d _definitely_ be corrected. Especially in philosophy, but also in literature, since **when it’s being used it’s referring to a specific fallacy**. Or, what **Frylock** said. [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) Well, yes, but that’s [jargon](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jargon) , right? (That is “the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group”) ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/87 "2008-03-28T03:38:40Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] (bolding mine) Well, yes, but that’s [jargon](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jargon) , right? (That is “the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group”) [/QUOTE] Well, we like to think of ourselves as _being true to its original meaning_. 😛 I guess it’s _become_ jargon at this point, but only because the rest of you are stoopit. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/88 "2008-03-28T04:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone] For what it’s worth, I tend to say ‘raise the question’ myself, just because I know someone’s bound to go on a tear about it if I don’t. So you language mavens are effecting some change, even if minor. 😃 [/QUOTE] When the issue come up (not often), I use “invites the question”, or if I feel that’s not emphatic enough, “demands the question”. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/89 "2008-03-28T15:45:38Z")
You know what cheesed me off? I watched all of “the Incredibles,” and at no point in the story was their propensity for truth and veracity called into question! ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/90 "2008-03-28T17:17:21Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] When the issue come up (not often), I use “invites the question”, or if I feel that’s not emphatic enough, “demands the question”. [/QUOTE] Hey, I like that. We could have different levels, depending on how important we think the question is. invites the question demands the question threatens the question bullies the question into giving up its lunch money waterboards the question under CIA supervision subjects the question to the Spanish Inquisition Sorry, I’m drugged up on Nyquil right now. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/91 "2008-03-28T17:29:33Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] This is rather dishonest of you. No one starts these pit threads when only a few people misuse a word. They only complain after the mistake has become widely accepted and widely used and therefore is no longer a mistake. [/QUOTE] The level of outrage is not directly proportional to the amount of misuse. I haven’t heard a lot of people misuse this term in general conversation - few people are discussing this kind of issue. The problem seems to be with writers, who should be expected to lead by using proper usage, not improper. Far more people misuse apostrophes and less and fewer - should we give up these also? It may be elitist of me, but in these questions illiterates shouldn’t get an equal vote. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/92 "2008-03-28T17:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] I swear I was actually going to post something like: I could see this in Philosophy journals, but that would be an example of jargon. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I write a column for an engineering journal, and I hope that my editor would correct this if I were to do it. (Our editors are English majors.) ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/93 "2008-03-28T17:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee] Hey, I like that. We could have different levels, depending on how important we think the question is. invites the question demands the question threatens the question bullies the question into giving up its lunch money waterboards the question under CIA supervision subjects the question to the Spanish Inquisition Sorry, I’m drugged up on Nyquil right now. [/QUOTE] Are you sure the last two are in the correct order? I think the CIA might trump Spanish Inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/94 "2008-03-28T17:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=Fuzzy Dunlop] Are you sure the last two are in the correct order? I think the CIA might trump Spanish Inquisition. [/QUOTE] It’s obvious you’re not a Catholic. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/95 "2008-03-28T17:46:13Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Hopefully, Mr. Adams will be more careful with his usage in the future; that is, I hope he will see the light. [/QUOTE] 😛 Actually, Cecil seemed to have a good reason for using it - unless he was just making up something to justify it. When you are writing dialog, or humor, I think it is okay to stretch the language just a bit to make a point. Cecil, since he knows all and sees all, knows the difference, but a lot of people using it don’t. My biggest problem is with those who justify being incorrect with the “everyone else does it” defense. We parents know this as the jumping off the cliff crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/96 "2008-03-28T17:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] The level of outrage is not directly proportional to the amount of misuse. I haven’t heard a lot of people misuse this term in general conversation - few people are discussing this kind of issue. The problem seems to be with writers, who should be expected to lead by using proper usage, not improper. Far more people misuse apostrophes and less and fewer - should we give up these also? It may be elitist of me, but in these questions illiterates shouldn’t get an equal vote. [/QUOTE] What I meant was that people like you didn’t complain about the new use of “begs the question” until that new use was widely accepted, as it is now. You probably didn’t complain when it was only a few people, since you probably wouldn’t have noticed it. The OP only made the complaint _because the use was already widespread_! Remember that I was responding to your characterization of the descriptivist view as “five people are misusing a word. Give up and put it in the dictionary” As for less vs. fewer, pull your head out of your ass and read **Kendall Jackson** ’s last post. I see no need to repeat it just because you can’t be bothered to read the thread you post in. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/97 "2008-03-28T18:08:14Z")
[QUOTE=Kendall Jackson] Lexicographers use statistical techniques to determine whether a usage has developed adequately, and “five people are misusing a word” is not even close to sufficient. In fact, your very belief that “begs the question” in its newer sense is still uncommon is proof positive that you have spent no time at all figuring out how prevalent it is. I just completed a Lexis-Nexis search and came across an entire page of entries in which the newer sense was the only one that I saw. [/quote] You might want to look up hyperbole while you’re at it. 🙂 I’m quite aware of the reasons for the descriptivist position, having read quite a lot about the Mirriam Webster dictionary controversy. There is obviously no scientifically provable answer, and even prescriptivists give up after a while. > [@](#): > > I didn’t use Google for this. Lexis searches professionally edited publications, and the entries were all examples from the past two years. I wasn’t looking too hard, but if it is difficult to find a single example of your notion of the “correct” usage in a random web search (ignoring complaints about language such as this thread), but I find literally pages and pages of the “incorrect” usage, then you might want to face the fact that you’re simply acting the ostrich and refusing to acknowledge the overwhelming prevalence of a usage that you dislike.I don’t want you to give up caring about language. I want you to spend time educating yourself before you complain. The examples in the OP were from professionally edited pieces, in part. I am not disputing its spread - just its correctness. > [@](#): > > For example, you were misinformed about “less/fewer”. What you were taught was wrong. Chaucer has already been mentioned, but the less/fewer thing goes back much farther than that. You are whining about a “misuse” that has characterized English [for more than one thousand years](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.html). Is that not good enough for you? If people have been making this “mistake” for damn near as long as English has been written down, is it still wrong? I’m less than impressed with the “King Alfred did it” argument. First of all, we have more words today than he did. Even during Shakespeare’s day, spelling was catch as catch can. Is that justification for throwing away our spelling books? Plus, some of the justification for less in the piece was not very convincing. “Six items or less amount of shopping?” Give me a break. “I have less shopping to do than you” is fine, but “I have less items on my list” isn’t. Doesn’t that just sound wrong to you, if nothing else? There are some place where the difference is arguable. The tables showed less far more popular than fewer in cases of time, and I actually agree. Even though hours may be countable, time fundamentally isn’t (until you get to Planck time, that is) so I can see why people would use less in this context. Now, if one uses less rather than fewer because it has one fewer letter, okay. Headline writers are allowed to distort the language for reasons of space. Again, there are often good reasons for this kind of thing, but thoughtlessness isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/98 "2008-03-28T18:29:16Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Again, there are often good reasons for this kind of thing, but thoughtlessness isn’t one of them. [/QUOTE] Wait, who’s being thoughtless and what are they failing to think? Also, I was wondering above whether you object to the use of frankly and thankfully as sentence adjectives? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/99 "2008-03-28T18:33:27Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Plus, some of the justification for less in the piece was not very convincing. “Six items or less amount of shopping?” Give me a break. [/quote] It was “six items or less than that amount,” which sounds wordy but perfectly grammatical. > [@](#): > > “I have less shopping to do than you” is fine, but “I have less items on my list” isn’t. Doesn’t that just sound wrong to you, if nothing else? It sounds both wrong and irrelevant. “I have less items” is not the same usage as “Six items or less.” The former sounds odd, the latter does not. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793/100 "2008-03-28T18:37:01Z")
Sorry for a third post. So it seems you’re allowing that the less/fewer distinction you’re talking about is an innovation, and you’re arguing that it’s a good innovation. It looks like you’re saying it’s a good innovation because it allows us to make distinctions we couldn’t make otherwise. Is that right? If so, then can you make it clear what distinction I can make with these words on your proposed innovation, that I couldn’t have easily made otherwise? -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/begs-the-quesiton/442793.md?page=6)