# 'Behavior Modification' camps for unruly teens: unspeakably barbaric, or worth it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671 "2003-07-01T22:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/1 "2003-07-01T22:32:23Z")
[The Observer: The last resort](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,987172,00.html) > [@](#): > > Were you to glance up from the deserted beach below, you might mistake Tranquility Bay for a rather exclusive hotel. > … > Inside, 250 foreign children are locked up. Almost all are American, but though kept prisoner, they were not sent here by a court of law. Their parents paid to have them kidnapped and flown here against their will, to be incarcerated for up to three years, sometimes even longer. They will not be released until they are judged to be respectful, polite and obedient enough to rejoin their families. > … > Parents sign a legal contract with Tranquility Bay granting 49 per cent custody rights. It permits the Jamaican staff, whose qualifications are not required to exceed a high-school education, to use whatever physical force they feel necessary to control their child. The contract also waives Tranquility’s liability for harm that should befall a child in its care. > … > Before sending their teen to Tranquility, parents are advised that it might be prudent to keep their plan a secret, and employ an approved escort service to break the news. The first most teenagers hear of Tranquility is therefore when they are woken from their beds at home at 4am by guards, who place them in a van, handcuffed if necessary, drive them to an airport and fly them to Jamaica. The child will not be allowed to speak to his or her parents for up to six months, or see them for up to a year. > … > Watched by chaperones, you read prescribed course books, take notes, then sit a test after each chapter. Two or three Jamaican teachers sit at the back of the room in case you get stuck, and they may be able to help. But to mark the tests, they have to use an answer key sent down from the States. > … > You may also write home to your parents, and though staff can read your mail, you may write what you like. But Tranquility’s handbook for parents warns them not to believe anything that sounds like a ‘manipulation’, the programme’s word for a complaint. > … > Tranquility is basically a private detention camp. But it differs in one important respect. When courts jail a juvenile, he has a fixed sentence and may think what he likes while serving it, whereas no child arrives at Tranquility with a release date. Students are judged ready to leave only when they have demonstrated a sincere belief that they deserved to be sent here, and that the programme has, in fact, saved their life. They must renounce their old self, espouse the programme’s belief system, display gratitude for their salvation, and police fellow students who resist. > … > When most children first arrive they find it difficult to believe that they have no alternative but to submit. In shock, frightened and angry, many simply refuse to obey. This is when they discover the alternative. Guards take them (if necessary by force) to a small bare room and make them (again by force if necessary) lie flat on their face, arms by their sides, on the tiled floor. Watched by a guard, they must remain lying face down, forbidden to speak or move a muscle except for 10 minutes every hour, when they may sit up and stretch before resuming the position. Modest meals are brought to them, and at night they sleep on the floor of the corridor outside under electric light and the gaze of a guard. At dawn they resume the position. That’s enough quoting for one OP, but please, read the article. The second page describes the flimsy reasons that parents send their kids to this re-education camp, and the eerie, Stepford behavior of some of the “students”. It’s not a school, it’s a brainwashing facility. The “teachers” have more qualifications in torture than in education. How can this possibly be legal? Parents would never be allowed to subject their kids to this here in the U.S., yet apparently they have no legal problem with sending their kids overseas to do it: > [@](#): > > In a crucial 1998 test case, a Californian court ruled that a parent had the legal right to send a child to Tranquility. Parental choice was sacrosanct. Completely absurd. “Forget about leaving the country to take advantage of lower ages of consent or same-sex marriages,” the government says, “but feel free to take advantage of lower standards for education, sanitation, and physical abuse.” :mad: OK, on to the debate. Should it be legal for parents to hire a company to kidnap their children, escort them overseas, and hold them in one of these camps for as long as it takes to subdue them? ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/2 "2003-07-01T23:41:00Z")
There’s not a lot of solid information on the Internet, but Tranquility Bay seems like bad news: [http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/magazines/teenage/html/20021230t200000-0500\_37366\_obs\_family\_wins\_fight\_to\_remove\_teen\_from\_tranquility\_bay.asp](http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/magazines/teenage/html/20021230t200000-0500_37366_obs_family_wins_fight_to_remove_teen_from_tranquility_bay.asp) Family wins fight to remove teen from Tranquility Bay [http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jun/06192003/nation\_w/67510.asp](http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jun/06192003/nation_w/67510.asp) Trouble Rips Through Tranquility Bay Youth Facility [http://www.isaccorp.com/tbj/tbj.html](http://www.isaccorp.com/tbj/tbj.html) International Survivors Action Committee on Tranquility Bay [http://www.nospank.net/tranqbay.htm](http://www.nospank.net/tranqbay.htm) IS THIS A CAMP OR JAIL? If the allegations of abuse are true, and I think they are, these kind of camps need to be shut down and the operators held accountable, preferably with lots of jail time. Teaching kids discipline is one thing, but twisting arms and forbidding outside contact is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/3 "2003-07-02T01:24:46Z")
Sheesh, this reminds me of that old _Saturday Night Live_ sketch about French Language Camp. “Anyone who uses the informal _tu_ spends a night in the box.” ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/4 "2003-07-02T01:34:46Z")
Reminds me a lot of the Sunlight Gardner Home in _The Talisman_. I have no idea how this could be fought, but I think it should be. Seems to me the parents quoted in the article had a big hand in messing up their kids – divorces, remarriages, “workoholism”, etc. Then when the kid doesn’t measure up to daddy’s ideal, he gets shipped off to something much worse than military school (the old traditional option). Can’t imagine what the long-term consequenses are of having your spirit broken. Can any of the kids even fake it for the time they’re detained there? If it were me, I’d cultivate a false “rehabilitation” and then possibly murder my parents. Or at least, write a book or something. But possibly the “school” does their stuff well enough that no one gets out (psychically) alive. Interesting too how these are the children of the upper class, and being poor is held over them as a threat and a promise if they don’t shape up. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/5 "2003-07-02T01:50:04Z")
The most heinous murderer gets a day in court and some basic legal rights. Kids, however, seem to be chattel. This should be illegal, but I can’t think of a legal principle to justify that. Any lawyers want to chime in? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/6 "2003-07-02T02:19:04Z")
> [@](#): > > OK, on to the debate. Should it be legal for parents to hire a company to kidnap their children, escort them overseas, and hold them in one of these camps for as long as it takes to subdue them? Absolutely not. Children are human beings, not slaves. > [@](#): > > This should be illegal, but I can’t think of a legal principle to justify that. Any lawyers want to chime in? Umm… 13th amendment? Neither Slavery nor Involuntary Servitude Shall Exist within the United States. Hauling them out of the country in chains against their will seems like slavery to me. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/7 "2003-07-02T02:39:00Z")
It sounds to me like Tranquility Bay (what a misnomer!) ought to be against the law. There are other tough wilderness camps (my preference) and boot camps that I would hope would not be so sadistic. Some of the wilderness classes spend over four hours a day on academics. That’s a good sign. The main things that I would look for in a good camp would be 1)moderate term programs. Less that two months doesn’t seem to have much long term effect. 2. emotional therapy with an appropriately credentialed counselor (one who will not take part in any discipline procedures) 3. academics 4. wilderness survival skills I’m sure that many parent do send their children to these camps for the wrong reasons. The $200-$400 a day fee should discourage long term “abandonment.” Other parents see these camps as a last chance to save their children from criminal activity, emotional collapse and drug addiction – including alcohol. As a teacher, I have never approved the concept of “breaking a child.” I understand that some of these camps break only negative behavior. And the good ones build their spirits back up in healthy ways. I cannot imagine a greater gift to a child that self-confidence. I cannot imagine a more horrible situation than abandoning a child indefinitely to an disreputable camp. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/8 "2003-07-02T02:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Students who fail to grasp this formula are forcefully encouraged to get the message. One girl currently has to wear a sign around her neck at all times, which reads: ‘I’ve been in this programme for three years, and I am still pulling crap.’ :eek: The first thing I thought of when I read that was Lowood School in _Jane Eyre_. We haven’t come that far in 150 years. ---
**Author:** ![Primaflora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Primaflora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Primaflora)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/9 "2003-07-02T02:46:41Z")
Unspeakably barbaric. Sickening in the extreme. I cannot see how this can promote mental health in the long run. If a kid has bipolar, ODD or ADHD then how will this kind of behaviour mod work to bring them to health? Actually when I read the article yesterday, I just felt so sad for the teens being consigned to these places. I cannot understand how a parent could see this as the only answer. How could you abrogate your parental responsibilities in such a way? I’ve got insight and direct experience into parenting a kid with similar issues to those described. He’s not yet a teen but I know it’s going to be a rocky road for us all. I can’t imagine thinking that this kind of torture and abuse will help him become a secure and functional adult. Bloody tragic. Absolutely bloody tragic. ---
**Author:** ![Panzerfaust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Panzerfaust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panzerfaust)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/10 "2003-07-02T04:53:41Z")
See, now, if parents would just beat their kinds for the smallest, most inconsequential or even imagined infraction, we wouldn’t need these sorts of camps. Abuse begins at home! In all seriousness, these sorts of things are people trying to bring to bear an entire childhood worth of absent discipline and operant conditioning into an extremely short period of time, well past the viable developmental period. If the people who ran these sorts of “re-education camps” (hoorj! I can use loaded words!) would take a few minutes and study up, they’d see the inherent fallacy in this idea. It strikes me as a totally ignorant response to the direct result of parental ignorance from the get-go. Stupidity caused by stupidity, perpetuating stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/11 "2003-07-02T05:26:41Z")
I have ADHD _and_ OCD as well. I can imagine that I’d probably emerge from one of these places in one of two ways: 1. Stark raving mad 2. Completely catatonic ---
**Author:** ![Shabadu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/46a35a/32.png) [@Shabadu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shabadu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/12 "2003-07-02T05:31:24Z")
This is another example of parents trying to find a way to “fix” their children. I work as a therapist for troubled teen girls, and I am horrified when I read articles like this one. I have heard of similar “camps” before, and I cannot understand what would make a parent send a child there. These places do very little in the way of figuring out the reasons for the behaviors, and focus on scare tactics and punnishment. Any trained psychologist will tell you that punnishment does not increase positive behavior. Any behavior can be scared into a child. It just makes me angry when I see things like this. There are other life affirming ways to change behavior in children and make them productive members of society without putting them into yet another trauma situation. I would not want to look back on my teen years and remember that my parents sent me away for years to be treated as less than human. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/13 "2003-07-02T05:36:55Z")
**Panzerfaust** [quote] In all seriousness, these sorts of things are people trying to bring to bear an entire childhood worth of absent discipline and operant conditioning into an extremely short period of time, well past the viable developmental period. \*\* There are also parents who have abused or over disciplined their children. And then there are parents who have done the best that they could and their kids have just fallen in with the wrong crowd or developed totally defiant attitudes. And sometimes the kids are down right dangerous to the parents as well as the community. Not all of the parents who try this alternative are evil or uncaring. And I don’t think that “the viable development period” has an age limit. Even adults can benefit from the right kinds of wilderness training. ---
**Author:** ![Stemba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@Stemba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stemba)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/14 "2003-07-02T05:39:51Z")
> [@](#): > > See, now, if parents would just beat their kinds for the smallest, most inconsequential or even imagined infraction, we wouldn’t need these sorts of camps. Abuse begins at home! Actually, although joking, your comment is actually how I was raised. See, while abuse (those actions which lead to permanent damage, and NO, ‘psycological’ damage does NOT count) is intolerable, so is ‘liberal’ childrearing. If your kid acts up, give 'em a bit of the belt. Lying to you? Spank 'em. God forbid they raise a hand to you. You see, children are like puppies. You have to break ‘em in at an early age or else they go on for the rest of their lives taking craps on your carpet. I was spanked as a child, but in a very precise manner. My dad would tell me what I had done wrong, what the punishment would be (the number of strokes) and what the ‘follow-up’ would be to make sure I had not resumed the behavior. All very precise, and unchanging. I couldn’t play my parents off one-another because that’d get me the same thing but with extra strokes for being ‘sneaky and decpetive.’ Just like housebreaking a dog, children have to be instructed in proper behavior. So long as the punishment is appropriately light to prevent permanent harm, well, why not? Pain is a quick and effective way of deterring behavior. Take for instance my cousin Lucas. Lil’ punk-assed child of eight who I had the displeasure of babysitting once. “Lucas, it’s time to go to bed.” _But I don’t want to._ “Lucas, I said you’re going to bed.” _I’m not! (falls to floor, kicking and screaming)_ “(picking up child) Yes, you are.” Then the kid bit my cheek and started trying to punch my head. One quick bout of ‘behavior modification’ consisting of me turning him over my knee and popping his bottom ONCE with my bare hand, then explaining it to him as to why, and the next time I babysat him, we wasn’t at all hostile at the thought of going to bed. Abuse begins at home, but it’s better because you care. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/15 "2003-07-02T05:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stemba \* > \*\*Actually, although joking, your comment is actually how I was raised. See, while abuse (those actions which lead to permanent damage, and NO, ‘psycological’ damage does NOT count) is intolerable, so is ‘liberal’ childrearing. If your kid acts up, give 'em a bit of the belt. Lying to you? Spank 'em. God forbid they raise a hand to you. > > \*\* Psychological abuse _does_ count. The most lasting and deepest damage is often wrought by what was said. I really hope your remarks about “breaking” children and likening them to dogs is sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Stemba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@Stemba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stemba)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/16 "2003-07-02T06:20:58Z")
Actually, it’s not sarcasm at all. It’s observation. ‘Liberal’ childraising, childraising which does not allow for the use of acceptable amounts of well regulated physical punishment (as I specifically stated, spankings delivered in a consistant manner with reasoning behind them) does not allow for one basic tennant of humanity, that we are not born with social standards or morals. What human beings are born with are survival instincts. Pain is an ingrained, ‘evolutionary’ (avoiding that can of worms) warning that said behavior or action does not contribute to personal survival. Think about Dr. Abraham Maslow’s hiearchy of needs. Basic physical needs are at the very bottom. Then safety and security. Most parents provide for basic physical needs (or else they’re neglegant.) Then comes security. Pain is an indicator that your security is threatened. It is our bodies way of saying ‘cut it out.’ You have a puppy you wish to housebreak. Do you scold it? Yes. Then what do you do? You rub their nose in it. But is that all? No, then you spank it. It takes a while, yes, but eventually this method will break a puppy of its ways. Now, say instead you simply scold it. No physical punishment nor direction. That puppy will keep on crappin’ and crappin’ and crappin’. This can be likened to a small child, most of whom (until about age 8 or so) don’t have the congiscant (SIC) ability to comprehend true right from wrong in a sense more than ‘Daddy gets mad when I do this.’ The child seeks, in an instinctual way, to allow itself to survive long enough to propogate. The child steals a cookie. Now, theft is against a social norm. The kid does not have the cognative ability to comprehend ‘social norm’ and that theft violates it. But he does have the physical ability to comprehend ‘pain is bad.’ If the parent is able to associate, through explination, that “theft is a behavior which will lead to pain” then eventually, like the puppy, the kid’ll stop doing it simply because he doesn’t like getting spanked. As far as your thought that psycological abuse does count, I just have to say “Get over it.” If a person is abused psycologically, then the person can become well psycologically. It is rare that a person, parent or otherwise, who engages in psycological abuse does so in a systematic way which fundementally changes thought processes and leaves permanent damage. Can’t get over it? Then hire a psycologist to help you get over it, or better yet, talk to some friends about your problem. Still can’t get over it? Then go ahead, commit suicide, because you obviously don’t have the basic willpower that comes standard with the package that is being human (humans are resiliant, watch a kid get yelled at and then go back to playing ten minutes later) and I don’t want you breeding and teaching this spinelessness to your kids. ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/17 "2003-07-02T06:29:11Z")
Well, if these kids would just listen to their parents, and not do stupid things, they wouldn’t get sent here in the first place. Of course, quite a few of these kids probably came from homes in which the parents didn’t do a proper job of discipline on their children (proper discipline can be done without spanking or physical punishment, though it helps) . On the other hand, sometimes perfectly good parents have children who are just total screw-ups. In my family, I have done very well, in College on full scholarships, with no problems with the law beyond minor traffic tickets. My other siblings are doing quite well too, except for my younger sister. She completely disregards authority, has broken numerious laws, dropped out of high school, ect. Frankly she seems like the perfect person to send to this kind of camp. Too bad my parents don’t have enough money to do so/She just turned 18 and couldn’t be forced to go. As long as there is no real physical abuse and the kids get a decent diet, this place seems fine to me. Parents should be able to do whatever they want to their children, beyond physical/sexual/severe pychological abuse, or total neglect - not feeding them enough. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/18 "2003-07-02T07:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shabadu \* > \*\*It just makes me angry when I see things like this. There are other life affirming ways to change behavior in children and make them productive members of society without putting them into yet another trauma situation. I would not want to look back on my teen years and remember that my parents sent me away for years to be treated as less than human. \*\* The worst part is, you might not even think of it that way. You might look at it as something that “saved” you from homelessness, death, and even… minimum wage. > [@](#): > > That without Tranquility they would be dead is an article of faith among all the students. > > I ask one how they would have died. ‘What?’ > > It soon becomes apparent that despite all having been programmed with the script of their near death, no one has paused to wonder how it would have happened. But if they hadn’t been dead, they would have been poor, a destiny they have been taught to consider more or less the same thing. ‘Tranquility showed me that I’d have been a minimum wager,’ Nick says. ‘This place saved my life.’ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DreadCthulhu_ > **As long as there is no real physical abuse and the kids get a decent diet, this place seems fine to me. Parents should be able to do whatever they want to their children, beyond physical/sexual/severe pychological abuse, or total neglect - not feeding them enough.** You didn’t read the article, did you? How do you come away with the impression that it _doesn’t_ involve physical and psychological abuse? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/19 "2003-07-02T07:14:19Z")
This is disgusting, and it disgusts me to see people supporting this sort of thing. Children are _human beings_. They deserve digity, freedom, and the right not to be abused physically or phsychologically. If you do not believe that psychological damage exists…why does our military train interegators to break their subjects? Why does a rape victim feel pain past the time when their physical wounds heal? Why is slavery illegal and morally wrong? Because those are all ways to destroy a person by fucking with their head. And it’s effective. And it is wrong. If a teen is a criminal, than let them deal with the criminal justice system. If a parent cannot handle a teen, let them seek out ways transferring custody and responsibility to somebody else. But it is wrong to kidnap, beat and torture anyone, even wayward children. If it is not legal treatment of a human being in the United States (and I believe that in all cases it is wrong to beat someone against their will), it ought to be illegal for a program actively recruiting from the United States. And beyond being illegal, it is wrong. It is always wrong to do this sort of thing to anyone. It is especially wrong to do it for a huge profit. I watched a promotional video for one of these places. They emphasized how the high cost was worth not having your kid around to bug you. It is sickening. And I think I am going to look in to what I can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/20 "2003-07-02T07:39:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stemba \* > \*\*You have a puppy you wish to housebreak. Do you scold it? Yes. Then what do you do? You rub their nose in it. But is that all? No, then you spank it. It takes a while, yes, but eventually this method will break a puppy of its ways. Now, say instead you simply scold it. No physical punishment nor direction. That puppy will keep on crappin’ and crappin’ and crappin’. > > This can be likened to a small child, most of whom (until about age 8 or so) don’t have the congiscant (SIC) ability to comprehend true right from wrong in a sense more than ‘Daddy gets mad when I do this.’ \*\* You are scary. Please don’t reproduce. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671.md?page=2)