# 'Behavior Modification' camps for unruly teens: unspeakably barbaric, or worth it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671 "2003-07-01T22:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/61 "2003-07-02T21:07:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Isn’t that called Stockholm syndrome? If you’re kidnapped and abuse, eventually you will sympathize and even fall in love with your captors? \*\* IIRC Stockholm usually revoves around a captor who has the opportunity/means to kill you but choses not to. After looking around a bit I haven’t noticed anything about kids getting killed by camp staff. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/62 "2003-07-02T21:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MmmDonut \* > **Look, I’ve never reached a point where I have fulfilled my parents ‘expectations’. Why is this so? My parents aren’t insane lunatics.** neither are we. > [@](#): > > \*\* > They don’t expect anything of me, except to live a happy life, > \*\* Although they, and society, probubly expected you to follow \*most \* of it’s rules and laws. > [@](#): > > \*\* My problems are not a result of ‘liberal’ parenting, not at all. I would chalk most of it down to mental illness, which is a very real disease that cannot be cured, at least in my case, with extreme discipline. \*\* Then in your case you would not profit from going there. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I think you are lacking in compassion, and so wrapped up in your conflict with your children you have let your pride interfere with decency. > \*\* You do not know me, you have not lived what I have lived. If anything I had too much compassion. Compassion that did not want our son to wind up in youth prison. At least with our descision I had some control over where he went and how long he’d be there, rather than some judge. Also he does not have a longer criminal record for being there. Pride? How does my pride enter into this? I don’t recall making any statements that could lead you to believe I suffered from wounded pride. > [@](#): > > \*\*Perhaps it worked for you. I only know that, were I in your kid’s place, I would hate you for the rest of my life. > \*\* When he is an adult that will be his descision. I never asked him to love me. I only told him to follow the rules of common decency and obey the law of the land. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Be offended if you want, but at least realize that, from the time you sent your child there, to the time he goes to live on his own, all of the “good” things that you believe the bootcamp has accomplished could merely be the result of his or her fear of being sent back. \*\* Is that any different from an ex-con who, after a hard time in prison, obeys the law only out of fear of being sent back? > [@](#): > > \*\*How is that preferable to mutual respect and a loving relationship? \*\* It is not preferable in any way, I’d rather it never got to this point. I’d have prefered we built treehouses and went to ball games. However, my preferences had precious little to do with his choices in what he did. ---
**Author:** ![MmmDonut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MmmDonut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MmmDonut)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/63 "2003-07-02T22:10:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Then in your case you would not profit from going there. Something tells me few would. > [@](#): > > Although they, and society, probubly expected you to follow most of it’s rules and laws. That’s true. > [@](#): > > You do not know me, you have not lived what I have lived. If anything I had too much compassion. Compassion that did not want our son to wind up in youth prison. At least with our descision I had some control over where he went and how long he’d be there, rather than some judge. Also he does not have a longer criminal record for being there. Pride? How does my pride enter into this? I don’t recall making any statements that could lead you to believe I suffered from wounded pride. I dunno, from what I’ve observed, males tend to compete with other males, regardless of relation. Blood related father and son, or otherwise, there always seems to be some level of competition going on. I think I’ll call it the Dad Philosophy, even though it probably has more to do with being male. Anyway, the dad is inclined towards unreasonable control over the son. The nature of the competition between the two compels the son to rebel, which in turn, forces the father to even more extreme forms of discipline. It’s a vicious cycle, because neither wants to give in. The son, seeking some sort of vindication for the fact that HIS pride was wounded as a result of the progressively harsher punishments, goes on to do worse things. The father may be motivated by good intentions, but his unwillingness to give in, regardless of the “rightness” of his actions, actually damages his quest to turn his son into a model citizen. Maybe you’ve done it; won that is. What is the benefit? Is he happier? More fulfilled? More motivated? Have you ever asked what was troubling him? > [@](#): > > When he is an adult that will be his descision. I never asked him to love me. I only told him to follow the rules of common decency and obey the law of the land. Well then, it is my opinion you will always have this problem. > [@](#): > > Is that any different from an ex-con who, after a hard time in prison, obeys the law only out of fear of being sent back? Would you consider that rehabilitated? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/64 "2003-07-03T00:51:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*Amazing, isn’t it. How much of an authority problem do you have when rather than behave in a resonable manner you would rather lay on a concrete floor for 18 months. \*\* What do you consider “unreasonable” enough to warrant lying on the floor, arms twisted behind your back, every day for 18 months? Something like… not sharing enough secrets with your “family”? > [@](#): > > Scott Burkett, a student who left two years ago, explains: ‘You can only move forward in the programme if you share intimate details of your life. If you don’t share, you’re not “working the programme”, and they’ll take away your points. In a meeting, your rep will suddenly pick on you and say, **“Right, I want to hear something private, right now. Come on. Or do you want to go to OP?”** And I’m going through this inventory in my head real fast, thinking what will hurt least to say? Because you tell her secrets and then she uses them against you later. Like, say a guy mentions problems with his girlfriend, a month later she’ll have him up, and she’s saying, “You don’t think she’s waiting, do you?” She’s laughing at you behind your back. “How many of your friends do you think she’s sleeping with right now?” **So I start telling her something, and she just says, “I’m not listening to that, that’s not deep,” and she calls for the guard to take me to OP.** And I’ve got until he gets in the room to give her something better, or he’s taking me.’ ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/65 "2003-07-03T01:34:09Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=185544](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=185544) Don’t go there. And don’t send your kids. (see my posts on Deer Park Hospital in the referenced thread. I bet Tranquility Bay is the same shtick.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/66 "2003-07-03T02:39:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > Boarding school? Trips to Aspen? what did I miss? what post did I not read? Where did this come from? 😕 \*\* You missed this quote from the article: > [@](#): > > When you have a teenager on the rampage, who are you going to turn to? In America, parents send their troubled offspring to Jamaica’s Tranquility Bay - a ‘behaviour-modification centre’ **which charges $40,000 a year to ‘cure’ them**. Decca Aitkenhead, the first journalist to gain access to the centre in five years, wonders if there isn’t too high a price to pay The implication being if you have $40k a year to spend on this crap, you probably are pretty wealthy. Susie Crackpipe and Tyrone Bluntsandfourties are probably not going to be the ones attending summer campt in Traquility Bay. IMHO, it’s the same kind of “absentee paranting” as shipping the kids off to boarding school or never being around and letting some nanny raise them. Then all of a sudden, they are 15 years old, you barely know them and you don’t know what do about their behavior. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BMalion_ > Our son was experimenting with drugs, getting drunk, probubly sexually active and lying about everything. When I met and married his mom (Aug 2000) he was 13 and you could tell he was a handful. I knew people who were like that at that age. They were called EVERYONE. And I’m sure it is worse for you since you are “New Dad”. I have to ask myself, why would I ship my kid off to be disciplined by a stranger instead of administering the discipline myself. Why should my kid fear some wanabe jarhead who thinks he’s a D.I. more than he fears my discipline? I’m pretty sure if my son or daughter is anything like me, the would get little benefit from such a camp. I would go through the motions half assed while ridiculing the instructors behind their back. Or maybe I wouldn’t do anything at all - what’s the worse they could do? Yell at me? What would they do if I said “Fuck you bitch! I ain’t running shit!”? Beat me? Not give me any food? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Blalron_ > If my parents did that to me, I would never talk to them again. Really? Cause I would thank them. Probably while they are sleeping. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MmmDonut_ > I think I’ll call it the Dad Philosophy, I believe the term is “Oedipus Complex”. Loosly based on the Greek myth, it basically amounts to rivalry between the father and son over the attentions of the mother. Someone with greater knowledge of psychology can probably give a better diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/67 "2003-07-03T02:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*Amazing, isn’t it. How much of an authority problem do you have when rather than behave in a resonable manner you would rather lay on a concrete floor for 18 months. \*\* I think you’re confused with respect to the posessor of the authority problem. The Wwasp crew seem to have one tool, and it’s clearly a hammer. So to them, everything looks like a nail. And they keep hammering, whether it’s doing any good or not. Whether it’s far past the point where any reasonable person would have started to wonder whether it _could_ do any good. > [@](#): > > One girl currently has to wear a sign around her neck at all times, which reads: ‘I’ve been in this programme for three years, and I am still pulling crap.’ The people who are running this program are allegedly the adults. If this girl is ‘pulling crap’ after three years, maybe they should figure out that the probram isn’t working, at least in her case? > [@](#): > > One boy told me he’d spent six months in OP. > > I didn’t think this could be true, but it transpired this was not even exceptional. ‘Oh no,’ says Kay. ‘The record is actually held by a female.’ On and off, she spent 18 months lying on her face. Same deal here. My thought on this is pure and simple: these people are acting on behalf of the parents. If it would be considered child abuse for the parents to administer such a program themselves, then it should be considered child abuse for parents to consign their children to such a program. I’m not against boot camps, but they need to be regulated, overseen, and inspected just like any other facility that is given similarly extensive power over its wards. That obviously can’t happen when they’re located in a Third-World country. And the parents…hell, it’s the parents that sound like they really need the boot camps: > [@](#): > > Messy divorce and remarriage are the norm among these parents. Their expectations of loyalty from their children, though, suggest a gilt-edged ideal of American family life so brittle any rebellion or defiance is literally terrifying. This culture then creates its own logic - for once adolescence is criminalised, Tranquility becomes the obvious solution. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that if the parents aren’t taking responsibility for their own lives, their kids may fall down on that job as well. > [@](#): > > ‘He was real disrespectful to his mom,’ Mozingo sighs. ‘Not to me. Never to Daddy. He lived with his mom until a year-and-a-half before he came here, and I knew the day would come when she would call me and say, “I can’t handle it.”’ > > But Mozingo had baby twin sons with his new wife, and Josh was a disruptive addition to the household. 'I knew I had to do something. I didn’t want to lose him. I would do anything for him, that’s why I sent him here. Well, dipshit, maybe you should have straightened out your boy from Marriage #1 before fathering a new batch of kids in Marriage #2. If you hadn’t had the second round of children, you would have been able to straighten out that boy yourself, rather than having to ‘protect’ your new offspring from him. Sheez. You want it all, without any consequence to your own life, so you throw your son, your own son, whom you claim to love, to the lions. Jim Mozingo, _you_ need a term at Tranquility Bay. What a wretched excuse for pond scum you are. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/68 "2003-07-03T03:50:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*Amazing, isn’t it. How much of an authority problem do you have when rather than behave in a resonable manner you would rather lay on a concrete floor for 18 months. \*\* It’s pretty obvious from the links that the demands put forth by the staff in that little hellhole are way beyond “behaving in a reasonable manner”. Is it really necessary to point out that not all authorities are worth respecting ? Anyone with backbone enough to flip these psychos (and by extension, the people who decided to outsource his upbringing by sending him there) the bird at this extreme cost to himself for 18 months is showing a helluva lot of character & backbone in my book. Of course, I’m in no doubt that they broke him in the end ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/69 "2003-07-03T04:45:39Z")
This is the most appauling quote from Mr. Monzingo: > [@](#): > > We tried therapy at home, but you know.’ He laughs conspiratorially. 'God love 'em, we’ve got to have therapists, I guess. But I come from a class where if you’ve got a problem, well hell, you just work it out. Ok, so because you don’t believe in therapy, and because you don’t want to spend the time on it, you ship your kid off for abuse at the hand of strangers? I hope somebody seriously kicks this guy’s ass. (And I know therapy isn’t always effective, but it doesn’t even seem like he gave it a serious try). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/70 "2003-07-03T05:37:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stemba \* > Actually, it’s not sarcasm at all. It’s observation. ‘Liberal’ childraising, childraising which does not allow for the use of acceptable amounts of well regulated physical punishment (as I specifically stated, spankings delivered in a consistant manner with reasoning behind them) does not allow for one basic tennant of humanity, that we are not born with social standards or morals. What human beings are born with are survival instincts. Pain is an ingrained, ‘evolutionary’ (avoiding that can of worms) warning that said behavior or action does not contribute to personal survival. Think about Dr. Abraham Maslow’s hiearchy of needs. Basic physical needs are at the very bottom. Then safety and security. Most parents provide for basic physical needs (or else they’re neglegant.) Then comes security. Pain is an indicator that your security is threatened. It is our bodies way of saying ‘cut it out.’ Were you not hugged enough as a child or something? Pain is also something that people grow a tollerance to. What happens when the slap of a slow middle age man is no longer effective at inflicting pain on a full-grown teenager? Do you buy a cattle prod? Still, at least you seem to have the courage to administer the punishment yourself. Respect has to be earned. You can have someone else earn it for you. FYI, Stockholm Syndrome is a condition where a captive psychologically bonds with his captor as a defense mechanism for avoiding or enduring violence or pain. It does not have to be life threatening. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/71 "2003-07-03T05:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*Amazing, isn’t it. How much of an authority problem do you have when rather than behave in a resonable manner you would rather lay on a concrete floor for 18 months. \*\* Perhaps none. Perhaps you just don’t believe that you, as a human being, are required to do what some poorly educated, poorly paid, _in loco parentis_ stranger says just because he says so and he’s a nominal adult while you are under 18. If it means lying on a floor for 18 months in order to prove that you **won’t** be cowed under or forced to spout off nonsense (without Tranquility Bay I’d be dead or working for minimum wage?!?!) or reform your personality to someone else’s expectations, so be it, is I’m sure the opinion of some of these kids, including the 18-month girl. Or perhaps she was simply apathetic, and was doing whatever they demanded until the day she finally turned 18 and could sign herself out. Biding her time, as it were. However, it’s fairly clear that if someone is willing to lie on a floor for 18 months, or can be in a program for 3 years with so little progress that she must wear a sign around her neck like a dog, the program – which is clearly very one size fits all – isn’t utilizing the proper approach for those particular kids. Perhaps some kids respond to hardnose bullying, inferior educations, new age-y self-motivation videos, unsanitary living conditions, crap food and no medical care in a third-world nation. Perhaps some kids work the program just to get the hell out. But for every kid who does the program – for whatever reason – there is another or two others or several others who would be far better served by a personally tailored approach which explored the root causes of their unacceptable behavior, helped them deal with those issues, gave them alternative means of expressing themselves and encouraged them to move toward positive change. If there were anyone involved with WWASP, or whatever its called, who had any training in education or psychology or social work, they’d know that. It’ll be interesting to see if one of these kids signs himself out on his 18th birthday, comes back to the states the next day and files a massive lawsuit against his parents for the emotional and psychological damage inflicted upon them at one of these places. Parental rights aside, I’m fairly certain that you cannot give someone your approval to kneel on your child’s ankles and bend their arms behind their heads, or tell them that they’re whining and refuse help when they seek medical care for scabies and yeast infections. ---
**Author:** ![Panzerfaust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Panzerfaust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panzerfaust)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/72 "2003-07-03T06:14:13Z")
**Stemba** , I _think_ I see where you’re coming from, and I _think_ I understand the perspective you were trying to relate, but I also think you picked one of the worst possible analogies to present your argument. And around here, I’ve found that people are reeeeal picky about what analogies and metaphors you use. Furthermore, while I believe your general idea is sound, there’s a certain air of excess that I’m not entirely comfortable with. Right up front - I don’t have a kid. Sometimes, I’ve felt like I did, there’s a boy I love like a son and have tried to do my crippled best for, but I realize that’s not the same thing. I realize, while typing this out, that this makes my opinion totally void in this very discussion, so, um, I’ll shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![MmmDonut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MmmDonut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MmmDonut)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/73 "2003-07-03T06:20:45Z")
[http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm](http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm) should be of interest… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/74 "2003-07-03T10:06:26Z")
I’m working my way through [Aaron Kravig](http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/kravig)’s deposition. He’s a recent former ‘student’ there. He testifies that the place, besides being harsh, was dangerously unsanitary: shower stalls with stuff growing on the floors and walls, open sewage in places where it might get on clothes and towels; being made to clean dorms with rags that may have also been used to clean toilets. That’s just one former student’s testimony, but if it’s corroborated, they should be shut down pronto, just for that alone. ---
**Author:** ![LosAdri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@LosAdri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LosAdri)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/75 "2003-07-03T12:07:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BMalion \* > > When he is an adult that will be his descision. **I never asked him to love me.** I only told him to follow the rules of common decency and obey the law of the land. Emphasis added. Maybe that was the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/76 "2003-07-03T14:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LosAdri \* > \*\*Emphasis added. Maybe that was the problem? \*\* Well, I come from an old school family, so I can see where **BMalion** is coming from, and don’t think that it deserves this particular recrimination. I love my boys, with all of my heart. But I don’t ask them to love me. I do my best as a dad, and hopefully, If I’ve done a good job, they’ll appreciate it when they are older. But I’m sure that I’ll do a lot of things to piss them off- we all know that teens can react badly to restrictions of any sort, regardless of the prudence or necessity of the restriction (recalls the mention of ‘injustices’ earlier in the thread) . I want my boys to love me- but that is not the most important priority in their raising. I want them to grow up to be men that I can be proud of, but more importantly, men with self-worth and who can take care of themselves and interact with society to its benefit and theirs. Too many parents (especially after divorce) devote too much time to making their child love them instead of making their child a good person. Like I said, if I do right, and act out of love, I hope that they will love me in in return- if not now, then when they are old enough to understand. I’ve been lucky, especially in our blended family, that they reciprocate my loving them…but I know that not everyone is as lucky as we are. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/77 "2003-07-03T17:23:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LosAdri \* > \*\*Emphasis added. Maybe that was the problem? \*\* You’re right. I stand corrected. Trying to stay calm and answer posts quickly while at work on this touchy subject has caused me to choose words that are not always perfectly accurate. I apologize. What I said, many times, when our son screamed at me about how “I don’t love you I hate you…” I would respond. You **don’t have to** love me, that’s your choice. But you do have to follow the rules …etc " Be assured I told him many times, and still do, That I love him. Sorry for any confusion but it’s hard to condense three years of life into a couple of posts. Thanks for your patience. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/78 "2003-07-03T18:53:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MmmDonut \* > \*\* > I dunno, from what I’ve observed, males tend to compete with other males, regardless of relation. Blood related father and son, or otherwise, there always seems to be some level of competition going on. I think I’ll call it the Dad Philosophy, even though it probably has more to do with being male. Anyway, the dad is inclined towards unreasonable control over the son. The nature of the competition between the two compels the son to rebel, which in turn, forces the father to even more extreme forms of discipline. It’s a vicious cycle, because neither wants to give in. The son, seeking some sort of vindication for the fact that HIS pride was wounded as a result of the progressively harsher punishments, goes on to do worse things. The father may be motivated by good intentions, but his unwillingness to give in, regardless of the “rightness” of his actions, actually damages his quest to turn his son into a model citizen._\* You bring up some interesting points, and I thank you. But it seems that in reading my brief story you’re trying to perhaps mold it to fit your theory, (or philosophy) of father-son relationships. I don’t feel the need to defend myself on a message board about what I did. But, I don’t mind sharing information for the purpose of education. Rather than try to pick my posts apart for information on what I did to my son that was monsterously evil (and I don’t mean you specificaly **MmmDoughnut** , I would hope that at least you could imagine for a moment that you were in my shoes. My mother worked for over 30 years in the juvenile court system in our county. She got her masters in family counseling and was instrumental in training and/or hiring most of the staff at the detention facility, the courts, and the counseling staffs. I have many freinds in the psychotherapeutic/counselling professions and I’ve volunteered many hours to help troubled teens. I was, at least, in a position to know of the resources for help available _and_ the dangers of abuse and neglect. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Have you ever asked what was troubling him? > \*\* What a silly question to ask me. _Of course_ I’ve asked him. Do you think a violent, defensive, angry teenager is going to give a meaningful answer? You have to sift through alot of crap and sulky non-verbal body-language to come to the conclusion that: What’s bothering him is that the world does not give him everything he wants when he wants it. Of course, he’s not that way now. Mind you, I can only speak from my experience about my situation, yours or your friend’s may be different. And on a public service note, if you know of someone who is having a struggle with their son or daughter, offer to let the kid spend a night or 2 with you (same-sex only, of course). You will help de-fuse a possibly bad situation and it might be that just knowing a non-family adult is willing to listen would make all the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/79 "2003-07-03T19:03:33Z")
Also, a lot of kids scream, “I hate you!” when what they really mean is, “I’m really really PISSED at you!” but don’t know how to say it. ---
**Author:** ![dorkusmalorkusmafia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorkusmalorkusmafia/32/7266_2.png) [@dorkusmalorkusmafia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorkusmalorkusmafia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671/80 "2003-07-03T19:06:14Z")
BMalian, I respect your decision to throw your kids away because they are unruly. That is your perogative. However, Military school doesn’t sound as bad as Tranquility Bay though. I just finished reading the link mmmmDonut provided with the court case and have to say all the kids talked very similarly about the torture they received, the unsanitary conditions, the lack of contact on both the “inmates” and parents to eachother, the quality of the food, the round of scabies that many of the people received, the fact that when one of the girls committed suicide that several of the boys had to continue drying off with towels with dinner plate sized blood stains and parts of the girl who killled herself’s hair on it, etc. If I were put in that situation, I would work it until I got out and then whoever sent me there would wind up dead. Jail isn’t as heinous as that hellhole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/behavior-modification-camps-for-unruly-teens-unspeakably-barbaric-or-worth-it/185671.md?page=5)