Many of us have spoken up. Just to be belittled by the right wing side of the board.
What the troops are doing is carrying out orders. That is what they have to do under severe penalties for disobeying. That the orders might suck is not something that they have any control over.
And, the reason you are getting piled upon is because your logic makes no sense.
You are pathetically naive. They are former Saddam-supporting Sunni Baathists who have chosen, that’s chosen, to continue fighting for control and subjegation of the Shia majority and a reinstatement of rule thru murder and intimidation.
They are terrorist by every definition of the word. And 1200+ of them have gotten what they richly deserve.
Watch this video and tell me how demoralized are troops are with what they are doing.
100% correct. This whole “against the war but support the troops” is utter bullshit. We have an all volunteer force which is in no way what-so-ever in anything resembling demoralized revolt. They believe in what they are being asked to do. If you don’t you are against them as well.
This whole concept started during the first Gulf war. It is nothing more than liberal guilt over Vietnam. Period.
Riiighhht.
Wanna buy a bridge?
If you really believe that all the insurgents are former baathists…I suggest that you volunteer to go over and straighten them out.
What say you?
They are pulling people in their 50’s back into the miltary. So surely they will take you.
Besides…they need more fodder.
That must be why they are committing suicide at an ever-increasing rate.
Just for the sake of a fun hypothetical, let’s suppose that you do somehow have a unique insight into the mind of every single soldier currently in Iraq, and that every single one of them believes as you think they do. That still doesn’t make your argument worth a hill of beans. It is entirely possible to support the troops even if don’t agree with what they’re doing, even if I disagree with the troops themselves.
I support the troops currently in Iraq, in that I hope fervently for their safety. I support them in that I don’t want the horrible burden put upon them to be in the cause of an unjust war.
I support them in that I don’t want the troops in Iraq to be forced to decide whether or not the wounded man on the floor of the mosque is just twitching or is preparing a grenade, because that’s a horrible decision to force upon anybody.
Even if the troops themselves disagree with me, if I feel that they are being used unjustly I have a duty to speak up; to not do so, to stand quietly by as these young men and women are placed in the horrible position they’re in now for a war I don’t believe in, would be to betray the troops, not support them.
Supporting the troops includes asking why they are being sent somewhere to be shot at. We have a leader who could not even keep his story straight about the reason for the war to begin with.
WMD? No WMD? Osama-Saddam connection? No connection? Tooling up for nukes? No capability? Bioterror? No capability?
So we went to this war. Now there is no way to get out of it; we have the tiger by the tail and don’t dare let go. Does it support the soldiers to keep feeding them to the meat grinder for no reason? I don’t think so.
One could phrase it like that, I suppose, but it isn’t helpful.
As I understand it, to “oppose the war but support the troops” means that you disagree with the war, but you don’t hold the troops in any way responsible since we need an army, we need soldiers that follow orders, and they are bravely doing what they’ve been ordered to do.
I oppose the war and I support the troops, but I do disagree with the troops in so far as they tend to support the war. To say that I am “against them” simply does not convey my beliefs.
As for the OP:
What do you mean by “rhetoric”? A protester on the street with a megaphone burning the flag? A calmly rational Op-Ed piece in the Times? Something in between?
I ask because few people who voice disapproval of the war would say that they engage in anti-war rhetoric.
Well put. I would say, for me, if you insist on actively protesting the war however, part of your protest is directed at the troops. Because the two are inexoribly linked. To believe otherwise is just living in denial.
No. Troops that understand that what they have been sent to do is wrong are troops I respect.
I honestly support our (and American) troops. They are doing what they were employed to do. Most of them (unless this is a big part of military training) probably never thought they’d be fighting for a cause they would personally disagree with.
That’s just a euphemism for “don’t think, don’t question.”
They are not inexorably linked. That’s an interesting choice of words, because it seems to me that one of the most crucial points in all this is that we can effect a change in that link.
The American armed forces exist to protect me. To defend my life with their lives while I selfishly go about trying to make a better life for myself, and all that, right? That’s what they stand for. For that reason, of course I support them. They have volunteered to allow me to essentially shield myself with their bodies, and I think that puts a lot of responsibility on me to keep up my end of the bargain. My end of the bargain – supporting the troops – involves, among other things, keeping a close watch on where they’re being sent, and why. If we invade Canada tomorrow because of, I dunno, Jim Carrey, I will not support the actions of the troops who carry out the invasion. By your reasoning, once the war becomes a fact on the ground, so to speak, I’m not being supportive of our troops. To me, the only way I can support them in that case would be to get them the hell home. That’s because they’ve placed their lives in my hands, and basically said “use me wisely.”
In my opinion, we didn’t keep up our end of the bargain this time. We’re letting them die even though we don’t need them to. I think the most supportive thing to do at this point would be to unlink them to Iraq, because I don’t think this is what they signed up for. If my disapproval affects morale negatively, that’s a problem, no doubt, but what can I do but explain where I’m coming from? I’m doing my job the best way I know how, just like they are.
“Support our troops” to me means holding accountable those who lie them into a mess that gets them killed. The majority of US people didn’t do that.
“Support our troops” to me means that when they are disabled as a result of their service we insist that the Veteran’s Administration be funded so as to provide for them as long as necessary. Most US people can’t be bothered to do that.
99 and 44/100th % the “Support our troops” rhetoric is just hot air.
This is a bad war, badly planned and badly executed at the stratospheric levels of the Commander in Chief and SECDEF and “our troops” are paying the price while a lot of people here long only for more tax cuts.
No, the minute we start blindly following our leaders without question, we have lost everything we stand for. Savvy politicians can always come up with excuses as to why they think criticism should be disallowed. Such tactics have no place in a free society. I can’t see any good that would come of sacrificing the truth for the purpose of military objectives; that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Besides, soldiers aren’t idiots; if what they’re doing is wrong, they’re gonna figure it out all by themselves, even if their commanders are trying to pump sunshine up their skirts. A command structure that relies on squelching the truth isn’t going to be any more effective just because I play along.
You’ve not convinced me of this “inexorable link”, can you explain why they are linked?
Reasons why they are not linked:
- The troops don’t get to decide which wars they want to fight in.
- My protest of the war is not directed at all at the troops. Those soldiers that believe the war is just may take offense at my protest, just as those stockbrokers that believe the war is just may take offense. It is not directed at the troops.
- It is possible to believe the soldiers are behaving in a morally correct way, and want the absolute best for them, but still think the war shouldn’t have been started in the first place.
If anything, it seems to me that there is no real correlation between supporting the troops and supporting the war. It is just a tool used by those who support the war to quiet dissent.
This whole “I support the war” from my comfy chair in NY USA is utter bullshit. Lots of guys of all ages and shapes and degrees of fitness are getting recalled. If you want to support them, go ahead and take one of their places. Why haven’t you?
Do you support the troops who are suing to avoid being recalled? Do you support the troops who are not showing up when they are recalled?
If not, why not? Are the troops or the war more important?
What kind of Orwellian psycho-ville are we living in these days?
How large of a decrease for how many troopers?
I mean, getting up in the morning undoubtedly lowers morale for some. Civilians’ loss of the right to protest USG policy might be a real bummer for some of our troops fighting for our right to talk back to our gov.
Even if questioning the war made the Baby Jesus cry, I’d prob’ly still do it. I see it as an obligation upon all free people living with a representational govt.
We are honor bound to keep a tight rein on our gov and question everything that can be questioned.
I feel sorry for the people who have trouble doing their jobs because I post on the SDMB. I really do. I think that they should get whatever help they need.
However, my feelings of sympathy for them do not outwiegh my obligations as an American to question my gov’s actions.
Sincerely, Simon
I’m not ignoring you, I’m just en route for the next while.
Who hates what the troops “stand for”?
I just think that America’s resources are being wasted. The most valuable of those resources are our men and women in uniform.
**When it comes to doing drugs and teenage prostitution,
If you do not support what the teenagers are doing you do not “support the teenagers”. You can’t say I hate what you what you are doing but I somehow still support you. Feel free to disagree with the drugs use and dislike the teen prostitution but don’t mouth the words.**