# Being born broken **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 1, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703 "2020-01-01T04:21:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/21 "2020-01-02T23:16:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > That appears like part of the fall of humanity through Adam and Eve in the Bible, and somewhat similar in the Quran and has made it’s was into other faiths as well including Buddhism though in a different format, but the same darn thing. Yes we are broken as a human, not complete in ourselves, and helped by other broken beings (typically parents and other authority figures), who do what they can but can’t help everything and thus humanity stays broken. However there is a way out of it, a connection to something beyond us but also within us. And I have seen this pattern in psychology also, as people shift from blaming others to looking at themselves for answers to questions they have had in their lives. The convergence of these faiths and studies seem to point to this is a universally true principal. Just because a bunch of religions believe it doesn’t make it true. Also the only times I have heard of it happening in psychology is the result of a bad childhood or abuse (which seems more in line with what is going on). ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/22 "2020-01-02T23:21:08Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Anyone who thinks hunter-gatherers are interested in “balance” is full of balloon juice. Hunter-gatherers are interested in where their next meal comes from. That’s why they hunt and gather. > > And it’s not like they sit around the fire at night and bond with each other, either. They’re mostly looking out for predators who want to eat their food and/or drag away their young. Well, a whole lot of them must have fallen in love. Fortunately for us. So it wasn’t all eating and not being eaten. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/23 "2020-01-02T23:36:59Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > OP, you seriously need to quit reading this garbage. > Okay, new strategy: How’s about just thinking and people watch til you can determine your own conclusions as to why folks are like they are.You’ll never know all the mysteries of life and people. That’s just how it is. > And let’s not even get into understanding the opposite sex. That’s a real rabbit hole. People watching doesn’t seem to help or address the main point of the link. That psychologically because of how our society is we feel like we have to fill some hole or as the result of a cut from some primal unity. I don’t like feeling like I’m born broken from something out of my control. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/24 "2020-01-03T00:35:06Z")
> [@Staggerlee](#): > > I’m not getting the ‘born broken’ message you mention, but agree that it sounds Freudian. Apparently having our period of breast-feeding cut short from an ideal four years (?) results in us spending the rest of our lives trying to patch up this psychic pain with religion, leader-worship, pursuit of romantic love, charisma (?), etc. . . . . The breast-feeding period is only that long when there’s little food available that’s easily chewed and digested by small children. When enough easily chewed and digested food is available, it’s like Hari Seldon said: > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > BS. Just to mention one point. My DIL was going to try to nurse her son for as long as he was interested, but he totally lost interested around age 2. Of course he was eating a lot of solid food by and already cut down to a “night-time nip”. One big problem with a hunter/gatherer life that requires nursing for four years is that nursing does not prevent additional pregnancies. This means that a mother with more than one child under four (or three, or two, depending on local resources) has to choose which child is nursed. I can’t imagine the pain of making that choice. Talk about leaving a hole. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/25 "2020-01-04T04:00:13Z")
I have big doubts about the nursing having an impact on psychology and that it was more of a necessity than anything else. But the quoted post notes how HG don’t have to “lose themselves” in egoic striving or the “elites” charisma and other things. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/26 "2020-01-04T22:24:32Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Anyone who thinks hunter-gatherers are interested in “balance” is full of balloon juice. Hunter-gatherers are interested in where their next meal comes from. That’s why they hunt and gather. > > And it’s not like they sit around the fire at night and bond with each other, either. They’re mostly looking out for predators who want to eat their food and/or drag away their young. Well, that too is a gross generalization, and pretty inaccurate as well. Hunter/gatherers generally did a lot more gathering than hunting, and both activities were characterized by seasonal flurries of intense activity and then a lot of idleness. Like, when the salmon run you better get out there and catch your salmon and smoke and dry them, but after that, you’re coasting until the next harvest thing comes around. California natives spent a lot of time gambling, singing, and making exquisite baskets. There weren’t even that many big predators until the whalers started letting so many stripped carcasses float to shore, supporting a boom in grizzlies and black bears. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/27 "2020-01-05T02:27:23Z")
But I guess it also makes me question what is natural and right when I see how different life is from then and now ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/28 "2020-01-05T20:16:59Z")
Like how wanting relationships or getting swept up in a leader is just to try and recapture this feeling of the numinous ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/29 "2020-01-06T00:25:03Z")
[http://www.fearofnature.com/wandering-god-berman](http://www.fearofnature.com/wandering-god-berman) Actually this was the book I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/30 "2020-01-06T06:09:56Z")
Also while the link to the site seems hyperbolic I think it gets at how humans were ones adept at surviving “in nature” and now it’s like there is a fear of it with them. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/31 "2020-01-06T16:09:10Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I have big doubts about the nursing having an impact on psychology and that it was more of a necessity than anything else. > > But the quoted post notes how HG don’t have to “lose themselves” in egoic striving or the “elites” charisma and other things. People ALWAYS form hierarchies. Hunter/gatherers are dependent on their local environment. They need to know a great deal about local resources and to coordinate to harvest the local resources. Coordination is critical to survival and it doesn’t happen by floating mentally “in nature”. I’m not sure what “egoic striving” and “‘elites’ charisma” is supposed to mean, but if they’ve got anything to do with managing one’s place in a group or managing between groups, then they were survival level critical. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/32 "2020-01-06T16:10:42Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Also while the link to the site seems hyperbolic I think it gets at how humans were ones adept at surviving “in nature” and now it’s like there is a fear of it with them. **Rosa Sayer:** Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/33 "2020-01-06T20:02:41Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > People ALWAYS form hierarchies. > > Hunter/gatherers are dependent on their local environment. They need to know a great deal about local resources and to coordinate to harvest the local resources. Coordination is critical to survival and it doesn’t happen by floating mentally “in nature”. I’m not sure what “egoic striving” and “‘elites’ charisma” is supposed to mean, but if they’ve got anything to do with managing one’s place in a group or managing between groups, then they were survival level critical. Well the link I posted is a book that suggests such things. But from what I have read about HG seems to suggest that the tale is quite varied and not exactly monolithic ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/34 "2020-01-07T04:55:17Z")
But the author in the link seems to suggest otherwise ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/35 "2020-01-07T05:35:17Z")
[http://9-1.huntergatherers.org/](http://9-1.huntergatherers.org/) And this one seems to suggest that in order to recapture the experience with the “numinous” (according you erikson) modern man tries many fusion experiments. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/36 "2020-01-07T19:40:35Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > So somebody calling themselves J.A. Heffernan decided to create a website where they could write up some theories, and you’re assuming that carries any weight? He is also self published and has no academic credentials online. He does not mention any academic credentials in his introduction, stating: "I have undertaken this project out of an intellectual fondness for the subject matter . . . " This is a hobbyist. This is a hobbyist who could not find anyone willing to publish his meanderings unless they were paid up front (White Poppy Press). And this is a hobbyist with a horrible bright orange background on the home page of his website. I would not read anything he wrote for fear of it killing brain cells. And about the “hole” - that’s a feature, not a bug. Humans spend many vulnerable years in childhood during which they need to stay close to and pay attention to the other humans around them. That requires motivation. Fortunately, most humans are born with a “hole” - a strong urge to be with, and create social bonds with, other humans. Without that “hole”, even in adulthood, the odds of survival go way down, especially in a hunter/gatherer situation. Modern resources allow people born with less urgent “holes” to survive, so if anything, modern life has allowed less “broken” personalities to spread. Theoretically. There’s really no way to measure how urgent the inborn need to connect is among different populations. So we, and JAH, are stuck telling stories about how we think things might be working. I did run across a magazine article, long ago, about scientists studying a hunter/gatherer tribe and how difficult it was to just watch while babies, children, and adults died of starvation. Because if you provide food, you change the society. Did you know that babies are born with a greater or lesser propensity to cry? Guess which babies were more likely to survive during periods of starvation. Guess why. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/37 "2020-01-07T22:21:27Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > [Wandering God, Berman — Fear of Nature](http://www.fearofnature.com/wandering-god-berman) > > Actually this was the book I’m talking about. That’s a review from, I assume the owner of the website. He describes himself: “Corbett Robinson . . . is a California native. He obtained his BA degree in Religious Studies with minors in Philosophy and Native American Studies from Humboldt State. He currently works for the National Park Service, on the Trail Crew for Golden Gate National Recreation Area.” I’m not sure I’d rely on him to accurately describe the book: Berman, M. Wandering God: A Study in Nomadic Spirituality (2000). That’s Morris Berman, with, according to wikipedia, a bachelor’s in mathematics and a PhD in History of Science. He’s described there as a humanist cultural critic who specializes in Western cultural and intellectual history. It looks like he ranges a bit from that when he writes for a general audience, but he was published by university presses. At a brief scan, Berman’s writing is dense and he argues against a lot of other historians/popularizers on a number of topics. In the introduction to Wandering God, he writes that with the hunter/gatherer outlook: “One does not “deal with” alienation (the split between Self and World) as much as live with it, accept the discomfort as just part of what is.” This is the exact opposite of what JAH is claiming in your first link. It looks like CR’s review is a mix of summary of MB, quotes from MB, and his own ideas, with references to other works. I don’t know how much he strays from MB’s conclusions. JAH, on the other hand, is very much going his own way. He’s much easier to read, but that’s all his own stuff. The reference(s) are there only for decoration, not support. Wandering God is the last book in a trilogy about consciousness and spirituality through different eras. I did not read it. I only scanned through. I’d describe what I did read as being based on what has been written about “consciousness and spirituality through history” by past historians, philosophers, and early psychologists. So if you’d enjoy having him describe other people’s guesses about the internal workings of long dead people to you and then tell you which of them he agrees with or disagrees with, go to it. There may be some actual evidence in there, but what evidence there is is drowning in multiple conclusions from multiple people. The first two books in the trilogy are The Re-enchantment of the World and Coming to Our Senses. He’s also written a trilogy on the decline of American civilization: The Twilight of American Culture, Dark Ages America, Why America Failed (2011). ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/38 "2020-01-09T16:54:50Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > That’s a review from, I assume the owner of the website. He describes himself: “Corbett Robinson . . . is a California native. He obtained his BA degree in Religious Studies with minors in Philosophy and Native American Studies from Humboldt State. He currently works for the National Park Service, on the Trail Crew for Golden Gate National Recreation Area.” > > I’m not sure I’d rely on him to accurately describe the book: Berman, M. Wandering God: A Study in Nomadic Spirituality (2000). That’s Morris Berman, with, according to wikipedia, a bachelor’s in mathematics and a PhD in History of Science. He’s described there as a humanist cultural critic who specializes in Western cultural and intellectual history. It looks like he ranges a bit from that when he writes for a general audience, but he was published by university presses. > > At a brief scan, Berman’s writing is dense and he argues against a lot of other historians/popularizers on a number of topics. In the introduction to Wandering God, he writes that with the hunter/gatherer outlook: “One does not “deal with” alienation (the split between Self and World) as much as live with it, accept the discomfort as just part of what is.” This is the exact opposite of what JAH is claiming in your first link. > > It looks like CR’s review is a mix of summary of MB, quotes from MB, and his own ideas, with references to other works. I don’t know how much he strays from MB’s conclusions. JAH, on the other hand, is very much going his own way. He’s much easier to read, but that’s all his own stuff. The reference(s) are there only for decoration, not support. > > Wandering God is the last book in a trilogy about consciousness and spirituality through different eras. I did not read it. I only scanned through. I’d describe what I did read as being based on what has been written about “consciousness and spirituality through history” by past historians, philosophers, and early psychologists. So if you’d enjoy having him describe other people’s guesses about the internal workings of long dead people to you and then tell you which of them he agrees with or disagrees with, go to it. There may be some actual evidence in there, but what evidence there is is drowning in multiple conclusions from multiple people. > > The first two books in the trilogy are The Re-enchantment of the World and Coming to Our Senses. He’s also written a trilogy on the decline of American civilization: The Twilight of American Culture, Dark Ages America, Why America Failed (2011). So he pretty much just quotes a bunch of different people but presents nothing original of his own? Also I don’t get what he means by the split between self and world, and I doubt that was the HG outlook and if it was then it’s not a good one. From what I can tell humans caused a lot of damage because of that split, unable to see how we are connected to the world and everything around us. Plenty of eastern philosophy argues quite well against this perceived “split”: ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/39 "2020-01-10T15:12:23Z")
If that’s the main point of his piece then HG were wrong in their view of the world because there isn’t a split between you and the world, ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703/40 "2020-01-11T14:45:48Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > And it’s not like they sit around the fire at night and bond with each other, either. That’s a load of cack, and you have no idea what you’re talking about. Bonding around the fire is \*exactly \*what they do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-born-broken/845703.md?page=3)