# Being brainwashed into a belief is not a good reason to hold said belief. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920 "2006-10-02T02:22:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Sens\_Nehtion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@Sens\_Nehtion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sens_Nehtion)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/261 "2006-10-08T14:47:21Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] But if you want to try a test of His existence, just a simple prayer will suffice: “God, if there is a God, show yourself to me and if you do, I will follow you” That’s all it really takes - you’re dealing with a real Person not an idea or a force, and He is more than capable of finding a way to communicate with you on a personal level, otherwise He’s not God. [/QUOTE] I have done that several times and had absolutely no response at all. In fact [several](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4681771.stm) [studies](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000AFE22-9D1E-146C-9D1E83414B7F0000&colID=5) have found that prayer doesn’t even help a third party so why should I believe it has any effect on me whatsoever? That is, why should I believe prayer has any more effect than doing another activity or engaging in another thought process that makes me personally feel good? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/262 "2006-10-08T15:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] Piaget doesn’t claim that his writing is directly inspired by God as the authors of the Bible do, and Tom pretty much regards every other book on the planet as more authoritative than the books in the Bible - you’ll have to make your own decision about who to trust. [/QUOTE] Are you investing energy in bearing false witness, now? Neither of your biblical citations say anything about the origin or formation of a conscience and neither contradicts the work of Piaget. You have simply grabbed two quotations that happen to mention the word (translated into English as) conscience, neither of which discusses how one acquires a conscience, and thrown them into the thread as some sort of testimony. (Actually, your claims for the meaning of the text from 1 John appears to be a deliberate contradiction of the actual passage, so I have no idea why you were throwing it in.) In fact, the bible generally refers to the conscience in the same way that we do, today, as some trait of humans that we all presume adults have. It makes no claim for how we acquired that trait and never claims that children are born with it. This is not an example of my appealing to every authority except the bible. I am willing to read the bible as it was written. It appears to be an example of how you choose to shoehorn everything in the world into your preconceived notion of how the bible should have been written. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/263 "2006-10-08T15:13:15Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] You can’t calculate something based on nothing. He’s never definitively been proven to exist, let alone communicated anything to anyone so there’s nothing to build the odds from. [/QUOTE] In which case, can you truly say that schizophrenia or hallucination (for example) are _more likely_ to be the cause of an incident where the voice of God is apparently heard? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/264 "2006-10-08T15:20:33Z")
I personally agree with Furt also!It makes complete sense to base the most important beliefs of your life,the laws of science and spacetime and the universe on the unquestioning faith in what another human being many generations ago in a much less informed age was allegedly told by something that told him apparently(though he had no way of checking if it was correct in its assumption or a mischevious entity playing games with him,or if it was his own subconscious ) that it was the supreme being and that its message has passed down through the generations without any hint of chinese whispers or advantageous editing by other humans,or translations into other languages as the true and uncorrupted word of og him/her/itself.Works for me ! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/265 "2006-10-08T15:24:10Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] In which case, can you truly say that schizophrenia or hallucination (for example) are _more likely_ to be the cause of an incident where the voice of God is apparently heard? [/QUOTE] Yes. If it can’t accurately be attributed to god, the likelihood virtually doesn’t exist. Through scientific deduction, we can pretty accurately determine schizophrenic or drug-induced hallucinations. Not so with religious experiences. I suppose we could play the old “prove a negative” game, but it’s getting tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/266 "2006-10-08T19:48:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] General christians aside, do _you_ discard parts of the bible as fables? If you do, what is the process you use to make those decisions? Do _you_ believe that christ and god are the same being? Do you believe that the ressurection occured? [/QUOTE] At which point **Suburban Plankton** vacates the conversation. Is it just me or is this becoming a cliché? Some liberal Christian maintains that their beliefs have some merit or merit in relation to Christians in general/fundamentalist Christians. They then proclaim any criticism directed towards them are uncalled for. When asked what said individuals actual beliefs are, they are loath to admit them. I think this silence speaks volumes that their beliefs are held largely, if not completely, due to brainwashing as per my OP, while any claims of “careful consideration” are shallow at best. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/267 "2006-10-08T23:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Yes. If it can’t accurately be attributed to god, the likelihood virtually doesn’t exist. Through scientific deduction, we can pretty accurately determine schizophrenic or drug-induced hallucinations. Not so with religious experiences. I suppose we could play the old “prove a negative” game, but it’s getting tiresome. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s necessarily a case of proving a negative, and my only quibble here is really a semantic one - concerning comparison of a known probability with a completely unknown one. But I’m happy to leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/268 "2006-10-08T23:55:26Z")
[QUOTE=badchad] At which point **Suburban Plankton** vacates the conversation. Is it just me or is this becoming a cliché? Some liberal Christian maintains that their beliefs have some merit or merit in relation to Christians in general/fundamentalist Christians. They then proclaim any criticism directed towards them are uncalled for. When asked what said individuals actual beliefs are, they are loath to admit them. I think this silence speaks volumes that their beliefs are held largely, if not completely, due to brainwashing as per my OP, while any claims of “careful consideration” are shallow at best. [/QUOTE] Nope…it’s not just you. I thought maybe we’d get it straight once and for all, but that’s what I get for thinkin’… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/269 "2006-10-09T06:05:56Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] The point of the passage to which you are replying is that you were missing _my_ point: That the position of the statement quoted by the OP does not distinguish true beliefs from false beliefs, and that due to this lapse, his position calls into question _any_ belief that is accepted without demand of evidence, unless the fact is basically in agreement with previous experience. In essence, this lapse eliminates the distinctions between beliefs in religion and beliefs in science (excepting in cases where the science does not alter or expand the individual’s worldview). [/quote] If you are saying that growing up with a scientific belief is not a good reason to hold it, I agree completely. No one should believe in evolution, for instance - one should look at the evidence and decide oneself. “I believe in Darwin because my teacher said it was right” and “I believe in Genesis because my pastor said it was right” are very similar. Where they differ is that you can dig deeper into evolution and get the direct evidence supporting it. I’m not saying you believe in Genesis, just using it as an example. > [@](#): > > Which assertions can be dismissed out of hand? I say we dismiss integration. Never did like integration. Or relativity; that’s just spooky. Let’s dismiss that too. The world was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago. There was a Garden of Eden. There were earthquakes and the dead saints walked Jerusalem at the time of the crucifiction. Stuff like that. > [@](#): > > I’m getting the impression that, merely because I criticize an anti-theistic argument, some people conclude from that that I must be a theist. How…disappointing. Still, if people want me to be a theist, I can play along: > > There’s no tribe that I know of that has independently developed relativity. That’s supposed to be a universal concept; and finding a ‘tribe’ that had independently developed it would, I think, be be a powerful argument for it. Is the absence of such a tribe an argument against it? Nope, because a precursor to discovering relativity is the mathematical and technological ability to do experiments and understand the result. I didn’t realize that anything similar was necessary for god to appear. Language, true - that chimps don’t believe is not an argument against any gods. > [@](#): > > I would think even a literalist read of the Bible would lead one to believe that the christian God prefers to chat with just a few members of his ‘chosen race’, and hardly ever speaks to anybody outside that race at all. He also clearly doesn’t put much priority in being obvious; he likes people to search for him. (Explanations for this may vary.) So why should anybody expect worship of him to be universal? It’s been universal in scriptures, what, twice? Just around Adam and Noah, right? I didn’t realize the Christian God had a chose race. My old god did, but that meant that there was no penalty at all for outsiders not believing in him. Adam and Noah are interesting, actually. Given the long lifespans of those mentioned in the geneology between Adam and Noah, the loss of understanding of God is hard to fathom. Pretty much anyone in the area could have spoken to someone who spoke to someone who spoke to Adam. The Bible explains the origin of languages, but doesn’t explain why or how the identity of God was lost somewhere between Noah and Abram. I suppose the theistic explanation could be the old sin thing again, but all us sinners after Abram became Abraham remember for an even longer period. That’s what I love about Genesis - the deeper you go, the more logical holes you find. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/270 "2006-10-09T06:08:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] This corresponds to an argument made by C.S. Lewis in his book “Mere Christianity”. He argued that a clear proof of God’s existence is based on the fact that each individual is born with a conscience, and therefore with the intrinsic ability to sense the difference between right and wrong along with an appropriate sense of guilt when violating it. The presence of such an intrinsic powerful force, universal to mankind, and which must be willfully overcome and deadened to set it aside, was presented by Lewis as an inescapable proof of the existence of a higher power. [/QUOTE] Except that some sociopaths seem not to be born with one, and that evolution neatly explains why most of us have one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/271 "2006-10-09T07:00:51Z")
[QUOTE=coffeecat] Let me make sure I’ve got your argument right: **Atheist** : The only reason anyone believes in God is it’s written in some contradictory and unreliable old book. That’s not good evidence; thus, there is no God. **Religious believer** : Hey, wait a second. I believe because I _met_ Him. **Atheist** : You just imagined it. You could disprove anything with that line of reasoning. Is everyone brainwashed and irrational who isn’t a follower of David Hume? [/QUOTE] apologies for the long delay in replying - I was away from a computer for a while. You’re mixing two things. The first is - does a person have a good reason for believing. Meeting god qualifies, I think, and is not a result of brainwashing. But a good and understandable reason may not be a correct one. For such a significant event, you’d want some independent evidence, since we already know that any of us can be deluded (and it does not mean someone is mentally ill.) If you accept all subjective experiences as being factual, there is a hell of a lot of stuff you need to accept. And they may turn out to be true - remember scientists thought reports of meteorites were hogwash, until one turned up. If you are ever abducted by aliens, please ask them for some interesting information we don’t know yet, but which can be checked. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/272 "2006-10-09T07:19:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sanders] Ironically, this is exactly how I “indoctrinated” my 12-year-old Catholic students last Sunday. You could have just as easily taught your children out of the introduction to Genesis that appears in the New American Bible (the standard Catholic Bible in the U.S.). I hope your analysis went a bit beyond that, because an argument such as “the stupid Christians, they can’t reason logically or recognize obvious contradicitons in Genesis” would definitely be indoctrination. [/QUOTE] Actually, I became an atheist from reading the introduction and commentary of a Bible in the English book room of my public high school, the first place I came across the multiple authorship hypothesis. And I certainly didn’t say anyone was stupid. The important thing was seeing the Bible as something you can analyze logically. My Hebrew School never taught inerrancy (and never taught errancy either) but we got taught as if it were proven history, just like the history books I read in elementary school. We were hardly stupid, just misled. Our books just left out the contradictory parts. More sophisticated students learn the complex rationale for why the Bible contradicts itself. When you start with a relatively blank slate, you don’t have this built in bias for belief. The nonexistence of the Davidic empire really bothers me. The nondivinity of Jesus doesn’t, since I never got taught it. It is hard to admit that your deep seated beliefs are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/273 "2006-10-09T13:48:28Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] The nonexistence of the Davidic empire really bothers me. The nondivinity of Jesus doesn’t, since I never got taught it. It is hard to admit that your deep seated beliefs are wrong. [/QUOTE] Ain’t that the truth. I’ve seen the reluctance to completely let go of certain beliefs in myself. I’m convinced that for many believers and non believers too, considering some of the posts I’ve read, holding certain beliefs has to do with powerful emotional attachments. I had my first serious religious experience as a young adult. Now I can look back and see the emotional attachments that led me to a certain church and then to embrace their beliefs. In some post of yours I read something about certain religions that might be considered atheists. I thought it was this thread but I couldn’t find it. I found that very thought provoking. I had the impression that atheists held no spiritual beliefs and religions like Buddhism were not atheists , but merely worshiped God in a different form. As time goes on and I examine my own beliefs I am more uncomfortable with the term God because it seems to support an image of a being separate from us that doles out mercy and miracles. I don’t see us or the mysterium tremendum as separate in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/274 "2006-10-09T14:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Alright, then please explain how your analogy works, because as far as I can tell it doesn’t. [/QUOTE] It’s not rocket surgery, here’s a quick summary: virtually every human being comes down the conveyor with a conscience ie, a non-tangible force that serves as a built-in internal guide that propels them towards good and produces guilt if it’s disobeyed. Since the conveyor places them in the hands of fallen parents who live in imperfect societies, in a short time they begin to reflect the distorted values of their particular environment. Although the designer’s originally programmed values of right and wrong can be distorted by these faulty external forces, the original program will always remain at work at least at a subconcious level. It’s like an operating system that’s been infected with a virus - it’s function becomes shortcircuited to various degrees but hasn’t been completely disabled, and it struggles in the background to retake control of the computer. The variations we see in conscience, therefore, are a result of the operation of these various outside influences and the success or failure of the original program in the battle to retake control. The Designer helps the conscience to win the struggle by posting rules(10 commandments) as a guide to clearly identify the proper design and correct functioning of his original programming. This battle for control is ultimately decided by each individual’s decision to continue to accept the invading virus or to take the steps required to remove it and allow the original software to function as designed. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] He doesn’t appear to have turned up, alas. I guess he’s not God. [/QUOTE] If you had planned a visit with another country’s head of state, a king or president, I’m sure you’d first do some research about the proper protocol before showing up and perhaps offending him or inadvertently making a complete fool of yourself. If you had done some basic research you would have discovered that approaching God with the wrong attitude will be fruitless. Without faith accompanied by humility, at best you will receive nothing from Him and at worst, ignite His wrath (see Luke11:29, James1:5-8, Ezekiel14:2-10, James4:6, Luke18:10). Tempting God by insulting Him or demanding action from Him is something of a sport on this site, I wouldn’t follow that pattern if you really want a response. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Do I get to test you, now? Everytime you see or hear something which you consider to be due to or because of God, see if you can come up with a way it could have happened without God; that is, if it’s possible for those events to occur without a God pulling the strings. [/QUOTE] You mentioned eyes, let’s consider the intricate function of the eye as it transmits colors and pictures to the brain in a fashion that we have never come close to duplicating, and consider the non-tangible items we’ve been discussing ie, an invisible force within human beings propelling them to do the right thing along with another intangible force (guilt) to bring correction for violations. Perhaps they exist by magic or how about elves and fairies? Or perhaps we could use chance and evolution to explain away the intricacies of the eye and then stretch the theory to even explain non-corporeal spiritual forces like guilt and conscience. Wait, what’s that whirring noise? Oh, even Darwin started spinning in his grave over that one. Indeed, those who grasp at other explanations besides an intelligent designer really must work hard to short circuit not only their conscience but their basic reasoning powers as well. I’m not willing to work that hard. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] ..it’s really quite possible that Piaget’s work is inspired by God. [/QUOTE] This statement, making an argument against my refusal to include Piaget’s book in those which God directly inspired, proves my basic argument better than I could myself ie, that there is a God-instilled conscience working within even those who most ardently deny His existence and who claim that their conscience concurs. If you really absolutely believed that there is no God and your conscience truly bore witness to it, this argument could never even enter your mind. If you had been honest about your previously stated beliefs then your mental process could only produce this equation: (No God) + ( Any book on the planet) = (None are inspired by God). In my case, as a counter example, if you began to argue about adding some additional writings to The Origin of Species, I wouldn’t bother opposing it for a moment. The equation in my mind would be: (False Theory) plus (Any Book) = (Falsehood). Since I’m 100% certain God designed and created everything and my conscience bears total witness to that fact, all opposite views or variations of such are completely inconsequential. Your subconcious has betrayed the insincerity of your all your previous professions of certain unbelief (you’re better connected to those first 4 commandments than you thought). My conclusion about all this remains: the existence of God isn’t a can’t believe issue, it’s a won’t believe problem. There will never be enough evidence to convince someone who has made a decision not to accept the Truth. This concept is also stated in Matthew16:31, “neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe if someone should rise from the dead.” That is precisely what has occured and true to the Scripture, people still refuse to be convinced. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/275 "2006-10-09T14:54:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] My conclusion about all this remains: the existence of God isn’t a can’t believe issue, it’s a won’t believe problem. [/QUOTE] Because us unbelievers are willfully evil. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/276 "2006-10-09T15:41:00Z")
[QUOTE=badchad] Because us unbelievers are willfully evil. Right? [/QUOTE] All humans are evil (see Rom3:23), unbelievers are just willfully blind to God’s solution for their condition. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/277 "2006-10-09T15:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] It’s not rocket surgery, here’s a quick summary: virtually every human being comes down the conveyor with a conscience ie, a non-tangible force that serves as a built-in internal guide that propels them towards good and produces guilt if it’s disobeyed. Since the conveyor places them in the hands of fallen parents who live in imperfect societies, in a short time they begin to reflect the distorted values of their particular environment. Although the designer’s originally programmed values of right and wrong can be distorted by these faulty external forces, the original program will always remain at work at least at a subconcious level. It’s like an operating system that’s been infected with a virus - it’s function becomes shortcircuited to various degrees but hasn’t been completely disabled, and it struggles in the background to retake control of the computer. The variations we see in conscience, therefore, are a result of the operation of these various outside influences and the success or failure of the original program in the battle to retake control. The Designer helps the conscience to win the struggle by posting rules(10 commandments) as a guide to clearly identify the proper design and correct functioning of his original programming. This battle for control is ultimately decided by each individual’s decision to continue to accept the invading virus or to take the steps required to remove it and allow the original software to function as designed. If you had planned a visit with another country’s head of state, a king or president, I’m sure you’d first do some research about the proper protocol before showing up and perhaps offending him or inadvertently making a complete fool of yourself. If you had done some basic research you would have discovered that approaching God with the wrong attitude will be fruitless. Without faith accompanied by humility, at best you will receive nothing from Him and at worst, ignite His wrath (see Luke11:29, James1:5-8, Ezekiel14:2-10, James4:6, Luke18:10). Tempting God by insulting Him or demanding action from Him is something of a sport on this site, I wouldn’t follow that pattern if you really want a response. You mentioned eyes, let’s consider the intricate function of the eye as it transmits colors and pictures to the brain in a fashion that we have never come close to duplicating, and consider the non-tangible items we’ve been discussing ie, an invisible force within human beings propelling them to do the right thing along with another intangible force (guilt) to bring correction for violations. Perhaps they exist by magic or how about elves and fairies? Or perhaps we could use chance and evolution to explain away the intricacies of the eye and then stretch the theory to even explain non-corporeal spiritual forces like guilt and conscience. Wait, what’s that whirring noise? Oh, even Darwin started spinning in his grave over that one. Indeed, those who grasp at other explanations besides an intelligent designer really must work hard to short circuit not only their conscience but their basic reasoning powers as well. I’m not willing to work that hard. This statement, making an argument against my refusal to include Piaget’s book in those which God directly inspired, proves my basic argument better than I could myself ie, that there is a God-instilled conscience working within even those who most ardently deny His existence and who claim that their conscience concurs. If you really absolutely believed that there is no God and your conscience truly bore witness to it, this argument could never even enter your mind. If you had been honest about your previously stated beliefs then your mental process could only produce this equation: (No God) + ( Any book on the planet) = (None are inspired by God). In my case, as a counter example, if you began to argue about adding some additional writings to The Origin of Species, I wouldn’t bother opposing it for a moment. The equation in my mind would be: (False Theory) plus (Any Book) = (Falsehood). Since I’m 100% certain God designed and created everything and my conscience bears total witness to that fact, all opposite views or variations of such are completely inconsequential. Your subconcious has betrayed the insincerity of your all your previous professions of certain unbelief (you’re better connected to those first 4 commandments than you thought). My conclusion about all this remains: the existence of God isn’t a can’t believe issue, it’s a won’t believe problem. There will never be enough evidence to convince someone who has made a decision not to accept the Truth. This concept is also stated in Matthew16:31, “neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe if someone should rise from the dead.” That is precisely what has occured and true to the Scripture, people still refuse to be convinced. [/QUOTE] Well, if Bibleman says it, it’s just GOT to be true! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/278 "2006-10-09T16:13:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] It’s not rocket surgery, here’s a quick summary: virtually every human being comes down the conveyor with a conscience ie, a non-tangible force that serves as a built-in internal guide that propels them towards good and produces guilt if it’s disobeyed. Since the conveyor places them in the hands of fallen parents who live in imperfect societies, in a short time they begin to reflect the distorted values of their particular environment. Although the designer’s originally programmed values of right and wrong can be distorted by these faulty external forces, the original program will always remain at work at least at a subconcious level. It’s like an operating system that’s been infected with a virus - it’s function becomes shortcircuited to various degrees but hasn’t been completely disabled, and it struggles in the background to retake control of the computer. The variations we see in conscience, therefore, are a result of the operation of these various outside influences and the success or failure of the original program in the battle to retake control. The Designer helps the conscience to win the struggle by posting rules(10 commandments) as a guide to clearly identify the proper design and correct functioning of his original programming. This battle for control is ultimately decided by each individual’s decision to continue to accept the invading virus or to take the steps required to remove it and allow the original software to function as designed. [/QUOTE] I agree to some extent but I hardly see it as proof. I do believe that the truth calls to each person from within but that leaves a lot to explain. How is it that people growing up in horrible enviorments can turn out so good. How is it that people can become such horrbly cruel monsters to each other? I don’t bellieve we all start off in this life from the same place spiritually, but thats a different thread. > [@](#): > > Indeed, those who grasp at other explanations besides an intelligent designer really must work hard to short circuit not only their conscience but their basic reasoning powers as well. I’m not willing to work that hard. Primitive man would consider many things we have today as magic because they would be beyond his comprehension. They wouldn’t be willing to work that hard either. > [@](#): > > My conclusion about all this remains: the existence of God isn’t a can’t believe issue, it’s a won’t believe problem. **There will never be enough evidence to convince someone who has made a decision not to accept the Truth.** This concept is also stated in Matthew16:31, “neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe if someone should rise from the dead.” That is precisely what has occured and true to the Scripture, people still refuse to be convinced. The principle in bold applies to people who believe in God as well as the non believer. There’s plenty left to learn on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/279 "2006-10-09T16:26:17Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Well, if Bibleman says it, it’s just GOT to be true! [/QUOTE] Like I always say, If you can’t trust Bibleman, then who can you trust? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/280 "2006-10-09T16:32:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] Like I always say, If you can’t trust Bibleman, then who can you trust? [/QUOTE] Dick Nixon? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=15)