# Being brainwashed into a belief is not a good reason to hold said belief. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920 "2006-10-02T02:22:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/501 "2006-10-27T20:05:50Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] there is no mention of Daniel among lists of the Prophets as late as 190 B.C.E. (and, indeed, Daniel is only included among the _Kethuvim_), whereas there are references to it in I Maccabees, written around 100 B.C.E [/QUOTE] As usual, you and your “sources” are completely wrong. Daniel was a contemporary of Ezekiel and even mentioned in Eze14:14. And all of the “rather less accurate” prophecies aside (which you are wrong about also), the main reason Bible critics late-date Daniel is because of the incontrovertible accuracy about his prediction of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes who Judas Maccabees eventually defeated. The critics, who can’t entertain the supernatural nature of the Bible, postulate that the book of Daniel must have therefore been written to inspire the Jews to engage in the battle. And all that aside, the current events in Iraq is a further fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecies and is taking place right in front of your tightly closed eyes and ears. The last great Gentile world kingdom recently placed its feet and toes in the exact area where Daniel’s prophecy of Gentile world history began, and it signals that the “times of the Gentiles” is rapidly closing. The coming of God’s kingdom is at the very door and like those during the days of Noah, you have nothing but mockery for the warnings and for God’s plan of salvation. You truly deserve your fate. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/502 "2006-10-27T20:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] On preview: thank you **tom**. I must admit, I’m still curious to see all these prophecies that he considers to be 100% accurate. The one about all nations on earth uniting against the country that controls Jerusalem is obviously false, and yet he used it as evidence… I’d rather not commit the fallacy of hasty generalization, and I’m wondering just how many “prophecies” he has that actually came true. **BM** : I notice, by the way, that you have ignored the fact that you cited totally false claims as evidence of “prophecy”. It isn’t hugely important, but a retraction would be good. Just for the sake of intellectual honesty. Are you deliberately misstating my position so that you can argue against a strawman, or are you honestly confused? Why pretend that I denied anything, when all I stated was that there is doubt? Could’ve sworn you said they were all fulfilled… want to retract your claim? Cite anywhere, at all, in the “prophecy” where a “second” coming is mentioned? Nope? All you’ve done is shown how Yoshua claimed that a cherrypicked quote applied to him, and then handwaved away the fact that the whole “prophecy” didn’t. In other words, it **had not and has not** been fulfilled. You can only make your claim by deliberately twisting what was actually said, and actually done. Much like you claiming that a serpent was “really” a spirit because a different book, written at a different time by a different author talking about a totally different thing, used a certain poetic image. As literary criticism, it’s failing work. “And thou shalt not believe my unverifiable, unfalsifiable, irrational tales.” “Well, um… I don’t believe them because they’re unverifiable, unfalsifiable, and irrational tales that don’t satisfy the burden of proof.” “Ah-hah! That proves I’m a prophet!” Glad we’ve set the bar so high. [/QUOTE] There’s obviously nothing to be gained by my trying to untwist your rambling accusations, no one can open the eyes and ears of someone who has already made a decision to remain blind and deaf. Be happy with your SubGenius writings. We’re done. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/503 "2006-10-27T23:05:16Z")
> [@](#): > > As usual, you and your “sources” are completely wrong. Daniel was a contemporary of Ezekiel and even mentioned in Eze14:14. I will admit to a lack of clarity, but you are the one in error. Daniel, the man, was noted in Ezekiel. Daniel, the book of a Prophet, is never mentioned in any catalog of Jewish writings as late as 190 B.C.E. I notice that with your hand-waving and declarations of “truth” you ignore the point that the purportedly contemporary history of Daniel (had it actually been written in the sixth century) is seriously in error. He botches the dates of his own King Jehoiakim (_when compared to the accounts in Samuel and Chronicles_), and gets the names, dates, and number of kings in Babylon wrong. In other words, by your apparent standard, God inspired Daniel to perfectly describe the world of 175 - 163, but he could not even figure out who was ruling the country in the time when he lived, even though his story includes those people in Babylon as well as the later Greek kings. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/504 "2006-10-27T23:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] There’s obviously nothing to be gained by my trying to untwist your rambling accusations, no one can open the eyes and ears of someone who has already made a decision to remain blind and deaf. [/QUOTE] Alanis Morisette’s songwriters would be so jealous. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/505 "2006-10-27T23:48:42Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I will admit to a lack of clarity, but you are the one in error. Daniel, the man, was noted in Ezekiel. Daniel, the book of a Prophet, is never mentioned in any catalog of Jewish writings as late as 190 B.C.E. I notice that with your hand-waving and declarations of “truth” you ignore the point that the purportedly contemporary history of Daniel (had it actually been written in the sixth century) is seriously in error. He botches the dates of his own King Jehoiakim (_when compared to the accounts in Samuel and Chronicles_), and gets the names, dates, and number of kings in Babylon wrong. In other words, by your apparent standard, God inspired Daniel to perfectly describe the world of 175 - 163, but he could not even figure out who was ruling the country in the time when he lived, even though his story includes those people in Babylon as well as the later Greek kings. [/QUOTE] When I looked up the passage on Gateway they had this footnote > [@](#): > > Ezekiel 14:14 Or Danel ; the Hebrew spelling may suggest a person other than the prophet Daniel; Evidently some are not sure that is the writer of the book of Daniel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/506 "2006-10-28T00:23:21Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] There’s obviously nothing to be gained by my trying to untwist your rambling accusations, [/quote] Ahhhh yes, such ‘rambling’ accusations as “Hey, you just blatantly contradicted yourself. Which was it, all prophecies were fulfilled, or only some of them?” And “The “prophecy” you’re quoting says nothing, at all, about a second coming. Why are you ignoring what was actually said?” This seems to me to be the Ostrich School of Debate. [QUOTE=Bible man] no one can open the eyes and ears of someone who has already made a decision to remain blind and deaf. [/quote] Ah-hah! I predicted that you wuoldn’t answer with any intellectual honesty, and would ignore anything that actually challenged your worldview. I’m a prophet. [QUOTE=Bible man] Be happy with your SubGenius writings. [/quote] Oh, I am. And you can be too. Eternal salvation, or triple your money back! Only someone who is wilfully blind and deaf would scoff at the powers o’ “Bob”. Are you a scoffer? :mad: [QUOTE=Bible man] We’re done. [/QUOTE] You are certainly done, but I reserve the right to respond to any of your further distortions, evasions, or outright fabrications. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/507 "2006-10-28T00:38:48Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Oh, I am. And you can be too. Eternal salvation, or triple your money back! Only someone who is wilfully blind and deaf would scoff at the powers o’ “Bob”. Are you a scoffer? :mad: [/QUOTE] The only religion in which you _cannot_ lose! Have _you_ ordered a copy of the Bobliographon yet? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/508 "2006-10-28T00:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Evidently some are not sure that is the writer of the book of Daniel. [/QUOTE] Actually, the the person mentioned in Ezekiel is clearly not the author of the book of that name; the question is whether the book is intended to call upon his authority or that of another with a similar name. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/509 "2006-10-28T00:45:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sweet Mercury] Have _you_ ordered a copy of the Bobliographon yet? [/QUOTE] Not yet… I was looking to pre-order via Amazon, but they had copies listed as used before the book went on sale. I think I’m going to go to a store in meatspace rather than cyberspace. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/510 "2006-10-28T00:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Not yet… I was looking to pre-order via Amazon, but they had copies listed as used before the book went on sale. I think I’m going to go to a store in meatspace rather than cyberspace. [/QUOTE] Were they listed as “Used” or as “Used and New?” I know that in the second catagory many retailers sell new items online _through_ Amazon, which might explain why they have copies before the release date. Regardless, you’ll get a copy within the next few days anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/511 "2006-10-28T08:27:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] Correction: Chad is extreme, but only a believer in God could act that way. He has the characteristics of someone who experienced a deep loss that he knows God could have prevented, but didn’t. Non-believers think everything happens by chance, but Chad appears to be directing his anger towards God on other believers and on those who might consider coming to faith in Him. Hopefully, someday he can forgive God for His sovreignty and begin to trust Him again. It’s a hard condition to recover from, letting go of a grudge against God feels like death (and it is; death to self) [/QUOTE] Hah! Reminds me of a quote attributed to Terry Pratchett, though I can’t remember whether he was referring to himself or Sergeant Simony (from _Small Gods_): something to the effect of “angry with God for not existing”. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/512 "2006-10-28T08:40:24Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] I reserve the right to respond to any of your further distortions, evasions, or outright fabrications. Sorry. [/QUOTE] As I have the right to let you display your ignorance without comment. Many times I fall short in convincing people to become believers, but you’re doing a great job in displaying what can occur when non-belief is chosen. Keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/513 "2006-10-28T10:13:05Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Hah! Reminds me of a quote attributed to Terry Pratchett, though I can’t remember whether he was referring to himself or Sergeant Simony (from _Small Gods_): something to the effect of “angry with God for not existing”. [/QUOTE] No one gets angry at something they don’t really believe exists. Ever get angry at leprechauns because you can’t quite bag that pot of gold under the rainbow? No, the anger with God is based on the inward knowledge of His existence and the fact that He’s both sovereign and righteous - and we’re neither. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/514 "2006-10-28T10:41:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I will admit to a lack of clarity, but you are the one in error. Daniel, the man, was noted in Ezekiel. Daniel, the book of a Prophet, is never mentioned in any catalog of Jewish writings as late as 190 B.C.E. I notice that with your hand-waving and declarations of “truth” you ignore the point that the purportedly contemporary history of Daniel (had it actually been written in the sixth century) is seriously in error. He botches the dates of his own King Jehoiakim (_when compared to the accounts in Samuel and Chronicles_), and gets the names, dates, and number of kings in Babylon wrong. In other words, by your apparent standard, God inspired Daniel to perfectly describe the world of 175 - 163, but he could not even figure out who was ruling the country in the time when he lived, even though his story includes those people in Babylon as well as the later Greek kings. [/QUOTE] Wrong again, Jesus (30AD) declared Daniel to be a prophet, He quotes from the book, and encourages His disciples to read it and take heed to its warnings(Matt24:15). As I’ve said in other posts, you regard every other book on the planet and every Tom, Dick and Harry who takes up a pen as being more authoritative than the Bible, but that’s your own problem. There are many outside ancient sources that do verify many of the Bible’s writings but Christians don’t need those to accept it as authoritative in itself; and wherever there might be disagreements, we accept the Bible’s testimony above other sources. On top of all that, the prophecies of Daniel and those in the rest of the Bible which are currently being fulfilled, are pretty much in your face as they not only declare your willful blindness but also your doom. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/515 "2006-10-28T10:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] I agree with you, and it goes back to what I have said previously about the Bible writers who claim that God spoke to them. The question must be answered, “Hath God said?” [/QUOTE] I could say Hath God Said, that does not mean God Has said it! I could say God told me to do anything,but it would not be true and because some human say’s or said God said something doesn’t make it a fact. It is just a belief in a human not any God. Muslims are just as sure that God spoke to Mohammad and told him and dictated the Koran. Some people believd Mohammad some didn’t. No proof that either was correct. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/516 "2006-10-28T11:31:43Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Hah! Reminds me of a quote attributed to Terry Pratchett, though I can’t remember whether he was referring to himself or Sergeant Simony (from Small Gods): something to the effect of “angry with God for not existing”. [/QUOTE] It’s not original with Pratchett. I know I’ve read it before, possibly by and/or about C. S. Lewis (in his atheist phase). [QUOTE=Bible man] No one gets angry at something they don’t really believe exists. Ever get angry at leprechauns because you can’t quite bag that pot of gold under the rainbow? No, the anger with God is based on the inward knowledge of His existence and the fact that He’s both sovereign and righteous - and we’re neither. [/QUOTE] Sorry, but I don’t think you’re qualified to pontificate on the psychology of the atheist. Being angry at something/someone you don’t believe exists makes perfect sense to me (even though I’m not an atheist); it can, for example, be anger at the mess things are in and the fact that there is (apparently) no one in charge that you can blame. Although I also suspect that at least a few (by no means all) “atheists” believe or at least suspect there is a God and that their denials are a form of protest or rebellion against the God that they believe/suspect exists. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/517 "2006-10-28T13:48:03Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] As I have the right to let you display your ignorance [/quote] “When _I_ use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.'” I would point out, by the way, that you lie and distort things not because there is ignorance that you will let pass without comment, but because there is truth that you can’t actually address. Or, you going to elaborate on how _all_ the prophecies were fulfilled… except those that werern’t? Didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/518 "2006-10-28T14:02:12Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] It’s not original with Pratchett. I know I’ve read it before, possibly by and/or about C. S. Lewis (in his atheist phase).Sorry, but I don’t think you’re qualified to pontificate on the psychology of the atheist. Being angry at something/someone you don’t believe exists makes perfect sense to me (even though I’m not an atheist); it can, for example, be anger at the mess things are in and the fact that there is (apparently) no one in charge that you can blame. Although I also suspect that at least a few (by no means all) “atheists” believe or at least suspect there is a God and that their denials are a form of protest or rebellion against the God that they believe/suspect exists. [/QUOTE] Here is a recent interview with Richard Dawkins, probably the highest profile proponent of atheism on the planet, discussing his most recent book “The God delusion” ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gWL1ZMH3-54/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/gWL1ZMH3-54?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Rather than suffer through the whole 10 minutes, just listen to his answer to the interviewer’s last question in which he says, “I don’t believe we’re put here to be comfortable.” That Freudian slip reveals a measure of faith and also acknowledges placement here by a higher power. Every human being is born with an inner consciousness of the existence of God that’s very difficult to completely silence and in Dawkin’s case, even writing a batch of books didn’t help. Atheism is a “won’t believe” issue - we’re wired with God consciousness and plenty of proof in the creation to bolster the faith. Self proclaimed "atheists” are just avoiding the responsibility of adjusting their lives to a higher power through denial; it’s just a defense mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/519 "2006-10-28T14:06:08Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] Wrong again, Jesus (30AD) declared Daniel to be a prophet, He quotes from the book, and encourages His disciples to read it and take heed to its warnings(Matt24:15). [/QUOTE] Which is simply a way for you to avoid the fact that the “prophet Daniel” was an author in the second century B.C.E. I have not denied that the book is prophetic (_i.e._, “speaking for God”), only noting that your claim that it represents a case of foreknowledge (which is a corruption of the meaning of prophecy) is an error. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/520 "2006-10-28T14:16:38Z")
By extension, are we saying that any atheist who exclaims “Oh God!”, is actually expressing an inner consciousness on the existence of God? Hmmm… Considering that it’s a common phrase ( much like “being put here on hearth” is)…Nope, it’s sooo not compelling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=27)