# Being brainwashed into a belief is not a good reason to hold said belief. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920 "2006-10-02T02:22:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/41 "2006-10-02T12:51:50Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] We this this fairly often here. I understand the concept but it lacks something. The God concept relates to some perennial questions about us in a way that Orange Mushroom people, IPUs etc do not. There is little reason to give them any consideration. For many there is some reason to give those perennial questions consideration. More importantly, for many people their belief springs from some powerful personal experience. Something that is internal and subjective. You are free to call that experience emotions or brain chemistry or whatever, just as I am free to call it a spiritual experience. [/QUOTE] Granted, but as far as I can tell, **Bob Bobford** was making an argument about how we should treat things that are _generally_ undetermined, then claiming that his particular case was just one of them, whereas it clearly isn’t, or at least there are other considerations being made (such as those distinct ones you detailed above). ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/42 "2006-10-02T12:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=Bob Bobford] I think that old saw is a poor argument. I don’t disbelieve other religions because of lack of evidence. I disbelieve them because I cannot logically believe them and Christianity. Secondly I fail to see how my argument is circular. I believe Christianity not just because of some nebulous “faith”, but because I am convinced that Jesus really lived and he really did rise from the dead. That is the evidence that I accept that makes me believe that Christianity is true. You may not accept that as evidence as valid, but my belief is based on more than just some wish for it to be true. Bob. [/QUOTE] What evidence do you base your belief in ressurection on? There is no documentation other than the bible, which most christians concede is largely a collection of stories that are not supposed to be taken literally. Why would the story of the resurrection be excluded from the list of fables that most christians believe to be fictional? Where would a thoughtful christian draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/43 "2006-10-02T12:57:56Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I won’t argue with your thesis as stated in the quote, **badchad** ; in fact I’ll heartily agree with it. What I take issue with, however, is your use of the word “brainwash.” It is inaccurate–no, an outright lie–as well as being needlessly inflammatory and distracting. Moreover, you could just as easily have written “indoctrinated.” Such behavior demonstates a desire to pick a fight, not a desire to change anyone’s mind. [/QUOTE] I won’t argue with your thesis as stated in the quote, **Skald the Rhymer** ; in fact I’ll heartily agree with it. What I take issue with, however, is your use of the words “pick a fight.” It is inaccurate–no, an outright lie–as well as being needlessly inflammatory and distracting. Moreover, you could just as easily have written “write a succinct OP.” Such behavior demonstates a desire to stir up shit, not a desire to change anyone’s mind What an asshole I’m being, huh, **Skald**? I’m starting to truly dislike all the posters like you who claim to have difficulty with **Badchad** ’s means of expression, which are simply colorful and direct, but whose real difficulty concerns the ideas he expresses. \*\* Badchad \*\*, as far as I’m concerned, is the truest Straight Doper I’ve seen here yet, who applies the raison-d’etre of this place, fighting ignorance and combatting superstitious bulllying, across the board. Because this board is populated by Christians mainly, there’s this gaping hole in the philosophy of the Straight Dope–we fight ignorance and superstition, except where the majority of us hold lifelong beilefs that are based on obscuring the truth and worshipping an entity that is unsusceptible to reason or logic, and he fights this battle wittily and resolutely, and pretty much alone. Since you can’t cope with his steadfast reasoning, people like you, **Skald** , instead to attack him by the most pathetic, puny, weakassed method of combat I can imagine: you nitpick his words, twisting them so that they seem poorly-chosen or inflammatory, when they’re just direct and clever ways to state his points. Whatever your own beliefs, you’re just enabling the Christian bullies here who claim this gigantic exception to the standards of this place–namely “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”–doesn’t apply to them, and they get away with this hypocrisy because they’re in the majority here. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/44 "2006-10-02T13:14:42Z")
“Pretty much alone”? “Christian bullies”? Look at this thread, or any other like it. More atheists show up to these religious discussions than theists, and it’s very rare that the _atheists_ are the ones asked to justify their beliefs. **badchad** and a few others are basically atheistic proselytizers, and in my experience they’re seldom polite about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/45 "2006-10-02T13:27:37Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] “Pretty much alone”? “Christian bullies”? Look at this thread, or any other like it. More atheists show up to these religious discussions than theists, and it’s very rare that the _atheists_ are the ones asked to justify their beliefs. **badchad** and a few others are basically atheistic proselytizers, and in my experience they’re seldom polite about it. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but we’re the ones being forced to endure religious persecution in our everyday life. It’s a daily battle to protect our rights. You’d be pissed off, too! ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/46 "2006-10-02T13:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] “Pretty much alone”? “Christian bullies”? Look at this thread, or any other like it. More atheists show up to these religious discussions than theists, and it’s very rare that the _atheists_ are the ones asked to justify their beliefs. **badchad** and a few others are basically atheistic proselytizers, and in my experience they’re seldom polite about it. [/QUOTE] We don’t need to be polite. We’re often polite out of basic human decencies, but why should we have to justify our beliefs when WE DON’T HAVE BELIEFS, and we doubt very much that you do. You’re just laying on the bombast with a trowel in a pretty successful attempt to intimidate us into conceding your right to indoctinate. If this thread concerned any belief other than Theism, it would be laughed off this board. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/47 "2006-10-02T13:43:18Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Yeah, but we’re the ones being forced to endure religious persecution in our everyday life. It’s a daily battle to protect our rights. You’d be pissed off, too! First, I am an atheist. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Second, I’m plenty pissed off about actual persecution, but I don’t see any of it happening on the SDMB. The bad acts of others are not a good enough reason to be impolite to theists acting in good faith here. > [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > We don’t need to be polite. This is true in exactly the same way that we don’t need to bathe. > [@](#): > > We’re often polite out of basic human decencies, but why should we have to justify our beliefs when WE DON’T HAVE BELIEFS Call them what you want, but you do have a set of axioms and conclusions about the nature of the universe, and about the likelihood of the existence of a god, yes? When I say “beliefs,” that’s what I’m referring to. > [@](#): > > You’re just laying on the bombast with a trowel in a pretty successful attempt to intimidate us into conceding your right to indoctinate. I am? As an atheist, that comes as quite a shock to me. Also, what the…? Where’s my bombast? How could anything I’ve written here be construed as intimidation? Please tone down your rhetoric if you wish to have a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/48 "2006-10-02T13:44:40Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] If they weren’t encouraged to weigh the evidence and were simply taught a flat statement that god didn’t exist, then yes…they were brainwashed. I would think those cases would be rare considering most, if not all, atheists I know were taught to explore the validity of everything. The fact that they come to the conclusion that there is no god is usually based on that exploration. In response to your second question, I think there is a large degree of social brainwashing and short or extended instances of intellectual weakness (due to, say, illness, down-on-your-luckism, marital or peer pressure) that persuade a lifelong atheist to believe. If a person drops, say, catholicism for methodism, I think that’s more a matter of cherry-picking. Methodism just _feels_ better; it fits their particular lifestyle better, so they go over the wall. [/QUOTE] There is a lot of stuff that qualifies as brainwashing going on. It occurs on a lot of emotional levels and on a lot of subjects. Many Religious people pass on their beliefs to their kids simply as part of teaching them right from wrong. The brainwashing isn’t intentional. The children embrace the beliefs first out of trust and perhaps later out of a fear of parental rejection. MAny people do teach their kids that when they are in their teens that they are free to choose what they believe for themselves. That encouragement to think and choose for themselves should be taught in every case. Unfortunatly it isn’t. I think your other explanations have some merit. As I said before. For many people their beliefs are connected to a real subjective experience they label as spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/49 "2006-10-02T13:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] In my opinion, it all boils down to an undeveloped ability to think critically. I can only speak for Christianity since that’s my family’s background, though I believe other religions work similarly, but you’re actually taught from early childhood not to question, but to accept, with an open heart, anything the bible teaches. [/QUOTE] I’m no expert in child psychology or educational development, but it seems to me you have to learn & accept some things uncritically before you get into critical thinking. You have to learn to count to 10 before questioning why 8 comes after 7. You have to learn who George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were before thinking critically about the casues of the American Revolution or Civil War. You have to accept your parents’ commands not to run into the street and not to drink the Drano if you’re going to survive long enough to develop your own rules for living. As for how early, or whether, children are “allowed” to question the Bible, or anything else for that matter, that varies quite a bit from family to family, church to church, etc. Your own experience is not universal. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/50 "2006-10-02T13:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Granted, but as far as I can tell, **Bob Bobford** was making an argument about how we should treat things that are _generally_ undetermined, then claiming that his particular case was just one of them, whereas it clearly isn’t, or at least there are other considerations being made (such as those distinct ones you detailed above). [/QUOTE] Noted. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/51 "2006-10-02T13:47:51Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] You may have simply used this as an example, Cosmo, but I have never, ever heard of anyone adhering to atheism for the sake of tradition or approval. It simply doesn’t work that way. One comes to atheism through careful and somewhat frustrating reflection and consideration. [/QUOTE] Piffle. I know several atheists who lack a belief in a god simply because they were raised in a family where there was no belief in a god and they accepted that situation as uncritically as any theist accepts a god. I also know a few people who “critically” came to atheism, then abandoned it and became believers in a god (often one radically different than the one worshipped by their family, so it was not simply a matter of “going home”). [QUOTE=Bob Bobford] Atheism is a spiritual belief. Agnosticism is a lack of belief. Once you assert that there is no god (the core of Atheism) you are making a positive statement. [/QUOTE] Piffle, again. This has been argued to death. You are wrong. Go look up any of the numerous threads on the topic (I think there was one last month) to see the points made or open a new thread to discuss it one more time. Please stop hijacking this thread with an old argument that is really not germane to the actual topic of this thread. (I am sure that you see the world in the way that you have described it, but I assure you that others see it quite differently and this line of argument is going to hopelessly derail the thread as presented.) (If I have to wade through these things, I’d much rather see some new discussion rather than having to read the same argument I read last month.) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/52 "2006-10-02T14:14:24Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I won’t argue with your thesis as stated in the quote, **Skald the Rhymer** ; in fact I’ll heartily agree with it. What I take issue with, however, is your use of the words “pick a fight.” It is inaccurate–no, an outright lie–as well as being needlessly inflammatory and distracting. Moreover, you could just as easily have written “write a succinct OP.” Such behavior demonstates a desire to stir up shit, not a desire to change anyone’s mind What an asshole I’m being, huh, **Skald**? I’m starting to truly dislike all the posters like you who claim to have difficulty with **Badchad** ’s means of expression, which are simply colorful and direct, but whose real difficulty concerns the ideas he expresses. \*\* Badchad \*\*, as far as I’m concerned, is the truest Straight Doper I’ve seen here yet, who applies the raison-d’etre of this place, fighting ignorance and combatting superstitious bulllying, across the board. Because this board is populated by Christians mainly, there’s this gaping hole in the philosophy of the Straight Dope–we fight ignorance and superstition, except where the majority of us hold lifelong beilefs that are based on obscuring the truth and worshipping an entity that is unsusceptible to reason or logic, and he fights this battle wittily and resolutely, and pretty much alone. Since you can’t cope with his steadfast reasoning, people like you, **Skald** , instead to attack him by the most pathetic, puny, weakassed method of combat I can imagine: you nitpick his words, twisting them so that they seem poorly-chosen or inflammatory, when they’re just direct and clever ways to state his points. Whatever your own beliefs, you’re just enabling the Christian bullies here who claim this gigantic exception to the standards of this place–namely “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”–doesn’t apply to them, and they get away with this hypocrisy because they’re in the majority here. [/QUOTE] This board is populated by Christians mainly? That hasn’t been my experience but I haven’t taken a census. Perhaps others can help illuminate. In anycase I think you’re overreacting. I have no problem with a strong unapologetic arguement, nor colorful language. The colorful language doesn’t really bolster the real meat of the arguement. It doesn’t lend it any added credibility. I think\*\* badchad \*\* makes some excellent points. He also makes some fairly weak ones IMHO and stubbornly defends them even when clear evidence is presented. I saw some interesting similarities between his style and **Bibleman** s. Isn’t that exactly what he rails against? FTR I agree with Sam Harris that beliefs should be challanged. There’s too much at stake to keep quiet out of some twisted definition of respect. The manner of that challenge will affect any result. Crys of “gullible irrational fool” and “arrogant jerk” don’t help much. Is the point to exchange ideas? To better understand and be understood? Or is it to “prove I’m right” or just to get your rocks off argueing with people you don’t agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/53 "2006-10-02T14:17:24Z")
[QUOTE=badchad] It is often wrong, and frequently dangerous, to accept beliefs simply because they have been handed down through the years, no matter how many years it has been, from the get go. It is really wrong, when you continue to hold these beliefs even when your own reason and experience would tell us they are wrong. [/QUOTE] As others have mentioned, it’s difficult to assail this thesis, but for what it’s worth: **It is often wrong and frequently dangerous…** If by “wrong” all is meant is “not true” then of course nothing is added by its inclusion. I agree that holding a belief that is not true is “less good” than the alternative, but the claim of “dangerous” requires support. I have no statistics, but it is not extraordinary to maintain that for every “bad thing” done in the name of religion, there are more “good things” or at least “neutral things” and at least equal to the number of “bad things” done outside of religious influence. Further: beliefs in the form of traditions help hold communities together. One can ask wouldn’t it be better to hold communities together on the basis of truth rather than myth? Sure it would, but that doesn’t detract from the community building value in the belief. **It is really wrong, when you continue to hold these beliefs even when your own reason and experience would tell us they are wrong.** This is impossible: no one can believe something they do not believe. Profess belief despite contrary convictions, sure… I agree there is a general wrongness in doing so, and I value the principle, “To thine own self be true.” But I concede cases where going through the motions can be of value to maintain one’s social acceptance in a community when faced with exclusion and derision may be an alternative. * * * Summary: **badchad** ’s thesis is incorrect, overstating both the frequency and magnitude of harm done by uncritically adopting time-worn traditional beliefs. While I agree such beliefs should be critically assessed - and discarded when found wanting - I argue that frequent danger is not the necessary result of failing to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/54 "2006-10-02T14:17:52Z")
[QUOTE=furt] I disagree passionately with the OP. Brainwashing is a fine and wonderful thing that we need more of. One should hold to beliefs unwaveringly, no matter how demonstrably stupid they are. [/QUOTE] If you were a woman and we were in the same room, I’d propose to you on the spot. Okay, maybe I’d just ask you out for coffee. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/55 "2006-10-02T14:19:11Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] Where’s my bombast? How could anything I’ve written here be construed as intimidation? Please tone down your rhetoric if you wish to have a discussion. [/QUOTE] I thought you were defending the Theists who pretend to be concerned about **Badchad** ’s rhetoric when actually they’re disturbed by his ideas. That’s whom I was addressing. The bombast comes in the disgusting and cowardly criticisms on **badchad** for being impolite, uncivil, inflammatory, etc. It’s the last refuge of a theist caught with his logic down–“Oh, yeah? Well , I think you’re being RUDE!!!” [“Badchad is rude” pileup ensues.] This pileup usually continues until everyone has forgotten **badchad** point, which is the purpose of the hijack in the first place. Listen, if you’re getting your ass kicked in a debate, take the ass-kicking and go away, please. Don’t lecture me on niceties of etiquette just because you have no other points to make. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/56 "2006-10-02T14:41:41Z")
[QUOTE=Nature’s Call] I have no statistics, but it is not extraordinary to maintain that for every “bad thing” done in the name of religion, there are more “good things” or at least “neutral things” and at least equal to the number of “bad things” done outside of religious influence. [/QUOTE] How many people are affected because the religious prevent people from using effective means of birth control? How many people get diseases they could have avoided by wearing a condom? How many people could be helped by stem cell research? How many wanted an abortion but couldn’t them? How much time and effort is spent keeping things like creationism out of schools? How much money was wasted because lunatics flew planes into buildings in New York? How much was spent on the wars that followed? How much is being spent on security measures to keep it from happening again? All this is being done in the name of religion or because of people’s religious beliefs. Any yes, religious people help to make many things better. Many athiests help to make things better, too. If religion was gone tomorrow would people stop helping each other? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/57 "2006-10-02T14:48:39Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I thought you were defending the Theists who pretend to be concerned about **Badchad** ’s rhetoric when actually they’re disturbed by his ideas. That’s whom I was addressing. The bombast comes in the disgusting and cowardly criticisms on **badchad** for being impolite, uncivil, inflammatory, etc. It’s the last refuge of a theist caught with his logic down–“Oh, yeah? Well , I think you’re being RUDE!!!” [“Badchad is rude” pileup ensues.] This pileup usually continues until everyone has forgotten **badchad** point, which is the purpose of the hijack in the first place. Listen, if you’re getting your ass kicked in a debate, take the ass-kicking and go away, please. Don’t lecture me on niceties of etiquette just because you have no other points to make. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to wade through threads checking but I’m pretty sure I remember some atheists also chiming in to critize **badchad** s style. What do you make of that? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/58 "2006-10-02T14:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I thought you were defending the Theists who pretend to be concerned about **Badchad** ’s rhetoric when actually they’re disturbed by his ideas. That’s whom I was addressing. The bombast comes in the disgusting and cowardly criticisms on **badchad** for being impolite, uncivil, inflammatory, etc. It’s the last refuge of a theist caught with his logic down–“Oh, yeah? Well , I think you’re being RUDE!!!” [“Badchad is rude” pileup ensues.] This pileup usually continues until everyone has forgotten **badchad** point, which is the purpose of the hijack in the first place. Listen, if you’re getting your ass kicked in a debate, take the ass-kicking and go away, please. Don’t lecture me on niceties of etiquette just because you have no other points to make. [/QUOTE] You might have a point, but I think what you’ve done here also tends toward a fallacy of distraction in the complete opposite direction; to wit: _people are only criticising **badchad** ’s style because they’re afraid of his substance_. I think this is a particularly inaccurate, perhaps _dishonest_ assessment of the state of play. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/59 "2006-10-02T14:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I’m not going to wade through threads checking but I’m pretty sure I remember some atheists also chiming in to critize **badchad** s style. What do you make of that? [/QUOTE] Not that you asked me, but I attribute it to different styles and not wanting to rock the boat. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/60 "2006-10-02T15:14:32Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] You may have simply used this as an example, Cosmo, but I have never, ever heard of anyone adhering to atheism for the sake of tradition or approval. It simply doesn’t work that way. One comes to atheism through careful and somewhat frustrating reflection and consideration. Some, like me, have lost the closeness of siblings over it. Atheists swim against the tide. We take our positions with the knowledge that there may be very few who agree with us or see things our way, yet we remove the yoke of theological belief anyway. Atheism is not a club and it’s not something that’s practiced. Although I’ve met quite a few atheists in my life I have more than a distant acquaintanceship with none of them. Most of the people I associate with on a daily basis just happen to be Christian or Jewish. I hold to a narrow definition of atheism that states definitively that there are no gods, or other supernatural entities, except that which humans create in their own minds. People who say they used to be atheists but are now Christians were never atheists, but agnostics; no one would decide to dismiss the processes of logical introspection that are interwoven into an atheist’s world view unless they were never an atheist in the first place. Although I’m cordial with everyone and honestly try to avoid insulting someone because of their religious beliefs, I know that true believers of any mythology are deluded, some to a greater degree than others. I realized I was an atheist (although I didn’t call myself that) when I was in my early teens. My mother dragged me to church every Sunday. I went through the motions but I didn’t believe. Eventually my mother stopped forcing me to go. It was just as sad for me as it was for her because i wanted to believe as much as she wanted me to, but simply couldn’t. Everything about Christianity had holes large enough for me to crawl through, and I crawled through every one of them. A number of Christians with whom I’ve discussed religion tend to equate atheism with a religious belief. I guess it’s the only way they can make sense of it. They lump it in with everything else they don’t believe in. On one side there’s Christianity, on the other there’s Buddhism, Shintoism, Judiasm, Islam, Wicca, Satanism, atheism, etc…, but then atheism also has the honor of being placed into a subset of beliefs considered undesireable, eg, Wicca, Satanism, athiesm, etc… Since atheism isn’t a religion or a belief, but an absence of belief, it’s incorrect to lump it in or equate it with any other mythological belief system. As an admittedly weak analogy, say you’re sitting across the table from a friend who’s drinking coffee out of a white mug. You don’t have any coffee. You’re just sitting there, mugless. You and your friend can discuss your friend’s mug, the shape of it, the color, other characteristics, but you can’t talk about, see, or feel your mug, neither can your friend, because you don’t have one. You can’t equate what you have in front of you with your friend’s mug because you are sans mug. Your friend’s personal experience with his mug is entirely different than yours. In fact, you have no mug experience whatsoever, not just a different mug. Make sense? [/QUOTE] well, what **tom** said. You can’t be so naive to not realize at least some atheists become that way because their parents were and taught them that, or that they did because of peer pressure. It’s just human nature. It’s isn’t only about logic and reasoning. It’s about emotion as well. Emotion affects the nature of atheist belief as well. Real atheists can’t become believers? So if they lacked belief in God and then believed that isn’t what happens? Can they at least eat quiche? I realize lots of people see atheism as some strange form of spiritual belief. I am not one of them. When Sam Harris suggested we not give religion any special status I took that seriously. In doing so I came to think more about the nature of what we believe on a subjective level as well as the objective. In doing so I realized that believers and non believers share a lot of the same traits and motives for what they believe in the subjective arena. Both have a belief system when we subtract the religious label. Both act on things out of faith when we subtract the religious faith specification. If we’re not giving relious beliefs a special protected staus {and I believe we shouldn’t} then perhaps we can stop covering every religious belief with the same blanket, and deal with the more specific details of belief. Sorry…I vented a bit FTR believers also have to swim against the tide and more than a few have suffered from it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=4)