# Being brainwashed into a belief is not a good reason to hold said belief. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920 "2006-10-02T02:22:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/161 "2006-10-03T10:27:06Z")
[QUOTE=Suburban Plankton] I cannot believe that all of this “just happened”. I choose to believe that “God did it”. As soon as someone can show me evidence that my beliefs are wrong, I will stop believing them. To do otherwise (to believe that which one knows to be untrue) is the definition of insanity. But no one will ever be able to prove that my beliefs are untrue. It is the nature of “faith” that it cannot be proven or disproven. This was the point that I made back at the beginning of the other thread which started this whole ruckus. [/QUOTE] There’s another option. “I don’t know.” Why do you have to “believe” something when there is no evidence to support it? Why must you use faith to “answer” the question? There’s nothing wrong with saying you don’t know the answer and you’re still searching. Why would you settle on _any_ answer when you really don’t know? Because it’s easier? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/162 "2006-10-03T10:37:20Z")
Also, what would make you think that YOU have the answer when so many others have searched and have thus far failed to definitively answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/163 "2006-10-03T12:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I can imagine that someone might be convinced - though the discussions never got that heavy. I assure you, in that situation no one really talks about religion, it just doesn’t matter that much. And no one particularly wanted to convince anyone of anything. The only way I could see a “conversion” happening was if someone who had never encountered people who didn’t believe was so shocked that his world was altered. Not very likely. [/QUOTE] In the thread we’re talking about people who might accept the spiritual beliefs just because of tradition. It’s what their parents said was true. What I imagined was this type of person who didn’t have deep seated beliefs won through soul searching but only inherited beliefs, going to the situation you described and being so impressed with the group and wanting to be a part of it they make the shift, again without any soul searching. It was the desire for group acceptance form of peer pressure I was thinking of. Until an individual does that personal examination of “what I believe” I think they can be swayed simply by association either way. Perhaps that’s to shallow to qualify for this discussion. In that case I plead temporary insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/164 "2006-10-03T14:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmmm…where should I start? I’m forced to make a statement regarding belief in god every time I buy something. The god reference being added into the pledge of allegiance. School vouchers. God space in public schools. Spending money to get some loser to remove the ten commandments from government buildings. I resent every bit of it. And I resent having to pay for it with my resented god money. Come on… really? You make a statement when you use money with God on it? So if you are in England and use money with the Queen on it, you are making a statement in support of Royalty? It’s just money… if you dont like using God money, write a check, use a debit card. if this is what gets you in tizzy, you have a quiet life. > [@](#): > > Not what he said. He said it was wrong to believe just because your parents did.. But there is no debate here, that is my problem. I can say I’m a Christian, but not because of my parents, but if my parents are Christians how do I prove myself? I can’t. So whats the debate? There isn’t one, its just another badchad way of trying to find new and inventive ways to insult those who don’t believe as he does. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/165 "2006-10-03T14:45:38Z")
I don’t wish to hijack this thread, but what about non-religious indoctrination? - patriotism and cultural influences like diet, dress, behaviour and other social norms. It would be hard enough to objectively measure which country is better than which, yet there are patriotic individuals in many different countries who hold the opinion that the best is theirs (I realise of course that this is not a complete or universal description of patriotism). I’m not trying to get religion excused on similar grounds as these (so please don’t assume that), I’m just wondering if some of these other, non-religious things that people impress upon their children - without much reason other than ‘it’s what we’ve always done’, or ‘it’s who we are as a people’ - should be critically examined and perhaps discarded? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/166 "2006-10-03T14:55:44Z")
[QUOTE=Dob] Come on… really? You make a statement when you use money with God on it? So if you are in England and use money with the Queen on it, you are making a statement in support of Royalty? It’s just money… if you dont like using God money, write a check, use a debit card. if this is what gets you in tizzy, you have a quiet life. [/quote] How would you like it if the money said “We Support Apartheid!” It doesn’t bother you when people put words in your mouth? Newsflash: “We” put our trust in lots of things. For many of us, God doesn’t even make our list of the Top Million things we put trust in. Sorry… the whole concept lacks appeal. > [@](#): > > But there is no debate here, that is my problem. I can say I’m a Christian, but not because of my parents, but if my parents are Christians how do I prove myself? I can’t. So whats the debate? There isn’t one, its just another badchad way of trying to find new and inventive ways to insult those who don’t believe as he does. If your parents raised you christian, don’t you think they’re the ones that planted the seeds in your brain that make it appealing to you? ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/167 "2006-10-03T15:08:59Z")
> [@](#): > > How would you like it if the money said “We Support Apartheid!” It doesn’t bother you when people put words in your mouth? Newsflash: “We” put our trust in lots of things. For many of us, God doesn’t even make our list of the Top Million things we put trust in. Sorry… the whole concept lacks appeal. Horrible comparision, as Apartheid was a cruel system that punished people for being a different color. “In God we trust” is a phrase used by the christian founders of this country as way to honor the God they believed in, it wasn’t put there to convert you. This country was founded by some very relgious people, they left their mark in many areas. So? I still dont see the “force” you mentioned earlier. Now, if you had to cross yourself or kneel or something whenever somebody took money out of their pocket, I would agree with you. But until that day it is a simple reminder by people hundreds of years dead of what they believed. > [@](#): > > If your parents raised you christian, don’t you think they’re the ones that planted the seeds in your brain that make it appealing to you? And thank you for making my point. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/168 "2006-10-03T15:51:01Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] I truly see no difference between what transpires in a “heart-in-the-right-place” church and a cult leader’s tent, other than the temperature and volume of the indoctrination. [/QUOTE] I think there’s a big difference between an organization (or church or cult or system) in which _no one_ is “allowed” to think for themselves, and one in which the mindless followers are there alongside at least a few thinkers and questioners (to keep the authorities honest). ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/169 "2006-10-03T15:55:48Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] I am seriously waiting for the monotheists to come back with a decent argument that supports polytheism too. [/QUOTE] I’ve got one. It’s quite simple, and comes directly from the Bible. The First Commandment: > [@GOD](#): > > I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me You would have to admit that this statement at the very least suggests the possibility of “other gods”. I would argue that it explicitly tells us that other gods exist. If not, the commandment would not need the clause concerning the “order” of gods. It would simply state that there were no other gods. So there are many gods. Of those, the God of Abraham is numero uno. As for why this god rather than some other god? That is another discussion altogether. How’s that? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/170 "2006-10-03T16:04:51Z")
The god gap argument is rediculous. It not only does not provide answers but gives much bigger questions. If you are uncomfortable with the logic lapses in the creation and maintainence of the universe, to accept that some amorphous creature is running it is silly. Where does this creture come from.? Are there others.? Do we have families of these cretures running around?.Do they vote republican? If you are uncomfortable with how the universe starts,how does introducing god solve it? How did god start? So nothing accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/171 "2006-10-03T16:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Suburban Plankton] I believe that the universe was created by “God”. I believe it was created in an almost infinitely dense, superheated state, and then rapidly expanded (in a sort of “Big Bang”) to eventually form the universe we see today. After several billion years, I believe that “God” cause a change in some spontaneously formed molecules, and created “life”. I believe that life evolved slowly over the next few billion years. I believe that “God” then caused another change in only one out of the many, many thousands of species that had live on this planet, and thus created “man”. I believe that many. many thousands of years after that, “God” lived on this planet as a man for 30 or so years, and was executed by the Romans. I can’t explain how the universe was created. I can’t explain how life formed on this planet from “non-life”. I can’t explain how humans gained “consciousness” unlike every other animal on this planet. And I am not alone. Nobody, not a single person, can answer any of these questions. There are many theories, but no facts. No evidence. No logical reason \*why \*any of it should have happened. There are really only two possible explanations: there is some supernatural force at work in the universe that is responsible for these happenings, or it all happened by random chance. I cannot believe that all of this “just happened”. I choose to believe that “God did it”. As soon as someone can show me evidence that my beliefs are wrong, I will stop believing them. To do otherwise (to believe that which one knows to be untrue) is the definition of insanity. But no one will ever be able to prove that my beliefs are untrue. It is the nature of “faith” that it cannot be proven or disproven. This was the point that I made back at the beginning of the other thread which started this whole ruckus. [/QUOTE] This is an accurate representation of my belief in God, as well. In my opinion, actually, belief that random chance allowed all of this to happen shows just about as much credulity as belief that God did it…it is just as unprovable that it could happen by random chance, and people who would not buy a lottery ticket because the odds are too small somehow believe that the world we are sitting in, and our own consciousness, could have happened that way? Seems to me that saying “someone must have done this” makes MORE sense than that! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/172 "2006-10-03T16:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=Dob] Horrible comparision, as Apartheid was a cruel system that punished people for being a different color. “In God we trust” is a phrase used by the christian founders of this country as way to honor the God they believed in, it wasn’t put there to convert you. [/QUOTE] Can you point to any founder of the country who expressed that sentiment? “In God We Trust” was first stuck on coins four score and six years after the Declaration of Independence as the result of a vigorous campaign by a group of zealots who wished to modify the Constitution to make various forms of Protestantism the Law of the land and had to settle for one inscription on some coins. Later, it was used by agitators who so feared “godless Communism” that they had to make a big deal of overriding the nation’s actual (and better) motto _E Pluribus Unum_ with a catchphrase, (one that had been soundly condemned by Theodore Roosevelt as blasphemous), while ignoring the fact that many of their fellow citizens did not share their beliefs. It has nothing to do with the “founders” of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/173 "2006-10-03T16:24:16Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] But you can ask her if she loves you. Not only can she report directly to you (you don’t know if she’s lying…but for our purposes here, let’s assume she’s not). Not only could you \*not \* ask god (and get an answer), but his actions here on earth would not support a positive response. [/QUOTE] But you are missing the point of my example. My example is NOT to compare my mother’s love for her children with God’s love for his children, or show that one is a metaphor for the other. The point is to show what we do when we are faced with question that can’t be proven through objective fact. In this example, we CAN’T assume she is not lying. We have certain observable facts (my mother took care of me, fed & clothed me, made sure I was educated, etc.), and we have various possible explanations for that behavior. Why do we decide that her motivation is love? Mostly because we can’t imagine a _better_ explanation for this kind of behavior. I personally don’t believe her motivation has been _proven_ through all of this, beyond a shadow of a doubt. But that doesn’t stop me from believing that she loves me (damn, she better after all this!) Likewise, there are various explanations for how the world came to be. I accept most of the explanations of science…but science leaves big gaps. There are various possible explanations for what happens in those gaps. I have decided in my mind that this is where God’s hand is at work. I, personally, do not see a _better_ explanation for how these things might have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/174 "2006-10-03T16:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=Dob] Horrible comparision, as Apartheid was a cruel system that punished people for being a different color. “In God we trust” is a phrase used by the christian founders of this country as way to honor the God they believed in, it wasn’t put there to convert you. This country was founded by some very relgious people, they left their mark in many areas. So? I still dont see the “force” you mentioned earlier. [/quote] If you are of the opinion that christianity is, for the most part, a cruel system then the comparison is appropriate. > [@](#): > > Now, if you had to cross yourself or kneel or something whenever somebody took money out of their pocket, I would agree with you. But until that day it is a simple reminder by people hundreds of years dead of what they believed. They don’t have to use a community system to declare their devotion to god. It’s personal and the sentiment isn’t shared by all Americans. It’s antiquated and marginalizing. > [@](#): > > And thank you for making my point. You said "I can say I’m a Christian, but not because of my parents, but if my parents are Christians how do I prove myself? I can’t. " The obvious answer is that you didn’t come to it on your own, so why would you say you did? If they raised you as a christian, why would you try to say you came to it on your own? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/175 "2006-10-03T16:41:34Z")
[QUOTE=Suburban Plankton] **Voyager** : Why not my God? It’s my belief, isn’t it? Actually, I have given the matter some thought. I don’t personally have a problem believing on other gods. After all, there are plenty of references to them in the Bible. I don’t claim that Zeus, Odin, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster don’t exist. I just happen to believe that there is one God who is above all, who is responsible for kicking off the whole thing, as it were. And as for him getting the story wrong in the Bible…that’s simple. God didn’t write it. It also didn’t happen literally in the fashion in which it is written down. Or so I believe. [/QUOTE] All very reasonable - but it still doesn’t explain how you can use cosmology to justify the belief in any god by a weak deistic one. You have two stages of belief. One, some god exists, as justified by the universe. Two, this god has some specific desires and properties - wants you to rest on Saturday, wants you to worship Jesus, doesn’t want you to do the naughty, whatever. The first step you’ve kind of justified, the second I contend you get only from your social milieu. If you were born in India you’d be a Hindu for exactly the same reasons you’re a Christian being born where you were, or that I was a Jew when I was a kid. It’s good that you accept evidence over what was written 3500 years ago - but why couldn’t god inspire spmething close to being correct? It isn’t hard to write an accurate Genesis story at the same level as the one we have - no equations needed. It’s quite odd how religious people consider a book that gets it all wrong still evidence in favor of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/176 "2006-10-03T16:47:23Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] This is an accurate representation of my belief in God, as well. In my opinion, actually, belief that random chance allowed all of this to happen shows just about as much credulity as belief that God did it…it is just as unprovable that it could happen by random chance, and people who would not buy a lottery ticket because the odds are too small somehow believe that the world we are sitting in, and our own consciousness, could have happened that way? Seems to me that saying “someone must have done this” makes MORE sense than that! 🙂 [/QUOTE] But you admit that there is no way of knowing. So why bank on one and not the other? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/177 "2006-10-03T16:50:27Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I don’t wish to hijack this thread, but what about non-religious indoctrination? - patriotism and cultural influences like diet, dress, behaviour and other social norms. It would be hard enough to objectively measure which country is better than which, yet there are patriotic individuals in many different countries who hold the opinion that the best is theirs (I realise of course that this is not a complete or universal description of patriotism). [/QUOTE] Very true. Not just patriotism - I can imagine how someone coming from an environment with a lot of vegetarians feeling about raising kids where it is rare. (My daughter went through a vegetarian stage so I’m sensistive to this.) In London McDonalds had decent vegetarian choices, not here. Vegetarian parents might feel that others raise their kids to eat meat without thinking much or at all about the moral implications. I wonder if being a vegetarian is analogous to being an atheist, in that you’re awash in the culture of the other way. Vegetarians have better reps than atheists do these days, but atheists are not confronted by religion quite as often as vegetarians are confronted by meat. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/178 "2006-10-03T16:53:59Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] But you admit that there is no way of knowing. So why bank on one and not the other? [/QUOTE] “Banking” on it is not exactly the way I would phrase it. If I’m completely wrong, and there’s no god, certainly I haven’t harmed myself in any way by being religious. I guess the worst thing you could say about it is that it has taken up my time, but considering the benefits I enjoy from that time I have spent, I am not complaining. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/179 "2006-10-03T17:27:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] In this example, we CAN’T assume she is not lying. We have certain observable facts (my mother took care of me, fed & clothed me, made sure I was educated, etc.), and we have various possible explanations for that behavior. Why do we decide that her motivation is love? Mostly because we can’t imagine a _better_ explanation for this kind of behavior. I personally don’t believe her motivation has been _proven_ through all of this, beyond a shadow of a doubt. But that doesn’t stop me from believing that she loves me (damn, she better after all this!) [/QUOTE] It also depends on your definition of love. If love is defined as taking care of a person, feeding and clothing them, ensuring their education, etc., then she loves you by definition and you have proof, whether you believe it or not. She may believe she doesn’t love you because she once told you she was sorry for something, and to her, love is never having to say you’re sorry. There has to be a mutually agreed-on definition before a thing’s existance can be debated. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920/180 "2006-10-03T17:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > t has nothing to do with the “founders” of the country. You are correct, I was wrong. I should have done my research better. The jist of my argument still stands tho… It is just a motto, nobody is holding you to them, or testing you, or requiring proof that you believe it before you spend the money. Regardless… my ignorance on this was fought, and I thank you for that! > [@](#): > > You said "I can say I’m a Christian, but not because of my parents, but if my parents are Christians how do I prove myself? I can’t. " The obvious answer is that you didn’t come to it on your own, so why would you say you did? If they raised you as a christian, why would you try to say you came to it on your own? Really, all you’re doing here is making my point, why do you persist? You have basically setup a no-win situation and now want to debate it with me? And the “obvious” answer is only obvious to you because it happens to be what you think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-brainwashed-into-a-belief-is-not-a-good-reason-to-hold-said-belief/374920.md?page=10)