# Being bullied by an attorney **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098 "2014-06-18T20:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/41 "2014-06-19T22:34:47Z")
Don’t blow the 3K off. Your attorney doesn’t lose thousands of dollars if you do. You do. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/42 "2014-06-22T17:05:55Z")
Lawyer here. But I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Most lawyers are hard-working, strive to do the right thing, and want to see that justice is done; very sorry you met one of the minority. I would file a small claims complaint for the money that you believe, in good faith, you are owed (here’s info on Arizona small claims: [Small Claims](http://justicecourts.maricopa.gov/CaseTypes/smallclaims.aspx)); let Douchey Atty. file a counterclaim if she wants. I would also make a complaint to the local bar disciplinary committee. Turning to social media, just stating factually what happened and using very few adjectives, might also be worthwhile. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/43 "2014-06-22T18:20:40Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Lawyer here. But I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice. > > Most lawyers are hard-working, strive to do the right thing, and want to see that justice is done; very sorry you met one of the minority. I would file a small claims complaint for the money that you believe, in good faith, you are owed (here’s info on Arizona small claims: [Small Claims](http://justicecourts.maricopa.gov/CaseTypes/smallclaims.aspx)); let Douchey Atty. file a counterclaim if she wants. I would also make a complaint to the local bar disciplinary committee. Turning to social media, just stating factually what happened and using very few adjectives, might also be worthwhile. Good luck! Wouldn’t turning to social media be a double-edged sword? The OP has a business that can suffer from that kind of flamewar I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/44 "2014-06-22T18:44:51Z")
Same thing happened to me. Did work for about$15,000, he paid $4000 as down payment. Work was great, no complaints, just didn’t pay. Threw a mechanics lien on his property. Year goes by, I have to either keep it, or sue him. Drop mechanics lien, take him to small claims for $10000. Win. He takes me to district court. I win again. Judgement, plus now attorneys fees. He doesn’t cough up disclosure of assets, he gets hauled in again more attorneys fees he gets to pay. This was part of an insurance claim on one of his properties, so he took the insurance check and spent it. He went into this project intending to screw me. But, he’s incompetent as all hell. Sits in court, in front of a judge and admits to insurance fraud, falsifying endorsements on checks, entering a contract under false pretenses (whatever you would call that) and blatantly lying at about a 4th grade level to the judge. I haven’t got my money yet, but I will get his Mercedes at the very least. Take the guy to small claims. Don’t let him get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/45 "2014-06-22T18:55:06Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Wouldn’t turning to social media be a double-edged sword? The OP has a business that can suffer from that kind of flamewar I imagine. Yelp rather than facebook I’m thinking ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/46 "2014-06-22T18:55:31Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I would also make a complaint to the local bar disciplinary committee. ! This is a strong possibility in my case, and I’ve certainly contemplated it. I’ve got plenty of evidence from his own testimony in conciliation and district court. My question is, because his bad behavior is not in his capacity as a lawyer, do they care? I’ve been advised to bring this to the attention of financial crimes division in that county. But the court hasn’t bright it to their attention, not sure if I should. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/47 "2014-06-22T19:03:50Z")
It’s up to them to decide if action is appropriate. But, at the very least, you’ll get them aware they might need to pay some attention to this person. That could help other creditors in the future, whether or not it helps you now. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/48 "2014-06-22T19:36:15Z")
I am not a lawyer and all that, but it seems to me that for $3000, you could simply sue them in small claims court. Add on some late charges and the filing fees. In addition, file a written complaint with your local Better Business Bureau and Chamber of Commerce. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/49 "2014-06-22T20:00:31Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I am not a lawyer and all that, but it seems to me that for $3000, you could simply sue them in small claims court. Add on some late charges and the filing fees. Well, yes, but the OP’s point is that the lawyer is threatening him with a larger countersuit. The alternatives are this: 1. The OP drops his lawsuit. The lawyer also drops his lawsuit. The OP is out the $3000 the lawyer owed him. 2. The OP sues the lawyer and probably wins $3000. The lawyer sues the OP for $240,000. Because of that larger amount, it goes to a higher court and the OP has to hire a lawyer for $20,000. The other lawyer can represent himself. The lawyer probably loses. But the OP is out $17,000. So the OP is looking for a third alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/50 "2014-06-22T20:08:07Z")
> [@fisha](#): > > This is a strong possibility in my case, and I’ve certainly contemplated it. I’ve got plenty of evidence from his own testimony in conciliation and district court. My question is, because his bad behavior is not in his capacity as a lawyer, do they care? There is a Arizona hotline you can call and they will be able to tell you if what the attorney has done rises to the level of misconduct. The telephone number is here: [http://www.azbar.org/lawyerconcerns/disciplineprocess/acap](http://www.azbar.org/lawyerconcerns/disciplineprocess/acap) It can’t hurt to call and tell them your story. Just know that this won’t get your money back. It’s parallel to whatever actions you want to take on that front. But it will help keep the attorney from victimizing others and most attorneys loathe “being grieved.” You’ll be the rare case of a non-crazy person attempting to file a complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/51 "2014-06-22T20:21:48Z")
Errr, I mixed up the OP and **fisha** , but the same advice goes for both. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/52 "2014-06-22T20:23:58Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > There is a Arizona hotline you can call and they will be able to tell you if what the attorney has done rises to the level of misconduct. The telephone number is here: > > [http://www.azbar.org/lawyerconcerns/disciplineprocess/acap](http://www.azbar.org/lawyerconcerns/disciplineprocess/acap) > > It can’t hurt to call and tell them your story. Just know that this won’t get your money back. It’s parallel to whatever actions you want to take on that front. But it will help keep the attorney from victimizing others and most attorneys loathe “being grieved.” You’ll be the rare case of a non-crazy person attempting to file a complaint. Right, it’ll be on my list of things to do. I also want to be careful of timing, want to make sure it’s not a"pay me or I go to the bar association" that might imply blackmail. But to clarify, why would the bar association care if he cheats me out of money, or cheats on his wife, or cheats on his taxes? I understand ethics, and that he has none, but I would think that the bar association would limit it to his professional conduct with his clients in his capacity as a lawyer. Other than trying to beat me over the head with the blunt instrument of the law, and dragging this out to almost three years now, it’s a dispute of non payment between a homeowner and a contractor~ his profession has nothing to do with the case… Other than him having a fool for a client. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/53 "2014-06-22T20:25:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > 1. The OP sues the lawyer and probably wins $3000. The lawyer sues the OP for $240,000. Because of that larger amount, it goes to a higher court and the OP has to hire a lawyer for $20,000. The other lawyer can represent himself. The lawyer probably loses. But the OP is out $17,000. If what the OP says is correct, the non-paying attorney client probably would not proceed with the threatened $240,000 lawsuit. It’s just a bluff to encourage the OP to take the first alternative; i.e,. drop the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/54 "2014-06-22T21:53:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, yes, but the OP’s point is that the lawyer is threatening him with a larger countersuit. > > The alternatives are this: > > 1. The OP drops his lawsuit. The lawyer also drops his lawsuit. The OP is out the $3000 the lawyer owed him. > > 2. The OP sues the lawyer and probably wins $3000. The lawyer sues the OP for $240,000. Because of that larger amount, it goes to a higher court and the OP has to hire a lawyer for $20,000. The other lawyer can represent himself. The lawyer probably loses. But the OP is out $17,000. > > So the OP is looking for a third alternative. False dichotomy. The OP refraining from suing for his/her $3k does not prevent the crazy lady from suing for $240k. She may very well still do so, and by being the second to file, the OP risks losing some credibility. ‘Twer it me, I’d go ahead and sue in small claims, and copy the lawyers’ letter to the local bar association. IANAL ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/55 "2014-06-22T22:15:15Z")
How much is your time worth? If your time is worth a lot, earn fresh money rather than chasing after lost money. If your time is not worth much, small claims her. Cost it out and make your decision based on the numbers. Don’t let emotions affect your business decision. Either way, just for shits and giggles, report her to her governing body. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/56 "2014-06-22T22:25:00Z")
IANAA(I am not an accountant), but I also think this might be worth thinking about also, if it takes, say, 5 years to recover $3000, then by the time you get the money it might only be worth $2400 in today’s dollars due to inflation - and I have no idea if that is a legally recoverable loss. Then if you factor in time and money not being used for anything more productive than chasing after this, the actual costs of recovery are even greater. So, maybe the best thing to do is figure out the most likely cost of recovery in planning your course of action. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/57 "2014-06-23T00:23:35Z")
> [@fisha](#): > > But to clarify, why would the bar association care if he cheats me out of money, or cheats on his wife, or cheats on his taxes? I understand ethics, and that he has none, but I would think that the bar association would limit it to his professional conduct with his clients in his capacity as a lawyer. Other than trying to beat me over the head with the blunt instrument of the law, and dragging this out to almost three years now, it’s a dispute of non payment between a homeowner and a contractor~ his profession has nothing to do with the case… As I said, I confused you and the OP. I think the OP has a better case since the attorney is using his/her profession to shield him/her from judgment (with the ridiculous counter suit). If your case is simply one of an attorney not paying his bills, then you may be right that the bar won’t care. At any rate, I think a five minute chat with a bar representative might clear up what’s actionable and what is not. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/58 "2014-06-23T01:17:54Z")
> [@interestingtwist](#): > > Help!! I own a small family owned business in Phoenix, AZ. > > Recently, a new client of mine who is also a local attorney, ran up over $3,000 in services from my business then outright refused to pay. FYI yes, we did a great job for this client and performed all services in good faith. After not being paid on our invoice for 2 months, we sent several very polite letters requesting payment for our services but were ignored. I know it’s not a ton of money, but this is what feeds my children so naturally I went about trying to collect. > > When we finally threatened to send them to collections we received a letter back from them complete with fabricated accusations about how we didn’t do a good job, were negligent, etc. They piled on a heap of false claims leading to the ultimate punchline, they claim we owe them $240,000 for damages as a result of our services. > > Everything in the letter is a complete lie and we have detailed documentation via email and other materials that can completely prove as much. We would destroy them in court on merits. Our attorney read their letter and says it looks like a template they use often, suspecting that this attorney does this to companies all the time. Hires out services, doesn’t pay, and then when threatened by a small company like mine for payment bullies them back with obscene legal threats until they just go away empty handed. > > Our attorney says there’s absolutely no way they would win a dime in court based on the trumped up nonsense they put into the accusation letter against us. However, they trumped up a claim of damages against us to a high amount so that, if we sue for what we’re owed, they could pull us into Superior Court. Unlike small claims, in Superior Court we cannot defend ourselves we a forced to retain counsel. A case like this could cost us $20,000 or more to defend. > > So that’s the racket. As put so eloquently by my attorney, “they have free legal council, you don’t”. This attorney abuses local vendors, steals services from them, and when they try to collect bullies them to go away - in essence stealing from them. And this isn’t the first time, I know of at least one other company in the last year that this attorney has done this to. That company just went away rather than try to fight. > > So my friends here is the question, should I: > > 1. Send them to collections and wait for them to then file a suit in Superior Court, costing me tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and countless hours of time to prepare a defense? > > 2. Walk away and eat the $3,000 hoping that they blow off and drop everything? > > There’s also (going nuclear) option #3 that I have considered which involves: > [ul] > [li]Filing a suit for my $3,000[/li][li]Contacting local news outlets to see who wants to pick up my story[/li][li]Filing a complaint with the State Bar[/li][li]Seeing if I can convince one of their competitors to give me pro bono representation for the case just for the satisfaction[/li][li]Contacting the BBB[/li][li]What else???[/li][/ul] > > Thoughts? You should shop around for an attorney who will charge less than $20,000. Do some legwork. You say you know other people who in the same boat. Maybe they’d be willing to write some statements. Talk to the District and/or County Attorney. Contracting for services without the intent to pay for them is “Theft of Services”, where I live. Or talk to the police - after you’ve collected the statements from the other vendors. No one can force you to hire an attorney. You always have the option to represent yourself. Courthouses - even in good sized cities - are small communities. If this guy’s the asshat you say he is, the judges and lawyers there already know it. So there’s half the battle. Finally, complain to the State Bar. You’ll need to do a little research. You have to allege the attorney’s specifically violated one of the ethics rules. You’ll need to look up the rules to know which ones to allege. Also, an attorney’s time is never free (no more than yours is). He doesn’t _actually_ want to spend time on this case, any more than you do. And he sure as hell doesn’t want to appear in front of a jury. Make sure in your filings you demand a jury trial, if it gets to that point. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/59 "2014-06-23T01:37:06Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Absolutely. > > Find a lawyer who exudes confidence they will get your money somehow or else have the guy disbarred. Exuding confidence isn’t that hard. Every salesman “exudes confidence”. Pick someone who seems like he knows what he’s talking about, not a good salesman. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/60 "2014-06-23T13:52:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, yes, but the OP’s point is that the lawyer is threatening him with a larger countersuit. > > The alternatives are this: > > 1. The OP drops his lawsuit. The lawyer also drops his lawsuit. The OP is out the $3000 the lawyer owed him. > > 2. The OP sues the lawyer and probably wins $3000. The lawyer sues the OP for $240,000. Because of that larger amount, it goes to a higher court and the OP has to hire a lawyer for $20,000. The other lawyer can represent himself. The lawyer probably loses. But the OP is out $17,000. > > So the OP is looking for a third alternative. I made an assumption that was perhaps unfounded. I’m assuming that when the OP turned over the finished product to the attorney, he got a sign-off from them that said that the work was done correctly and was accepted as-is. If he did, then the attorney is bluffing; sue the bastard and if he’s stupid enough to counter-sue, the OP will make even more money on the settlement from that case. If he didn’t get the sign-off, then the OP should consider the $3k as tuition in the College of Hard Knocks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098.md?page=4)