# Being bullied by an attorney **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098 "2014-06-18T20:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/61 "2014-06-23T14:52:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > If what the OP says is correct, the non-paying attorney client probably would not proceed with the threatened $240,000 lawsuit. It’s just a bluff to encourage the OP to take the first alternative; i.e,. drop the whole thing. I agree; it’s a total bluff. Look, it costs her almost nothing to write a threatening letter – maybe half an hour to put **interestingtwist** ’s name and address into the form letter and change a couple specifics. Well worth if it gets someone to drop a $3,000 bill. But remember actually going through with lawsuit would cost her $20,000 as well. (Maybe less if she doesn’t have enough clients to occupy all her time, I suppose, but still at least $3,000 in real money). Why would she go through all that to save $3K? I say, unless you think this person really is too crazy to realize they’d lose big in a case, or actually so broke& incompetent that there’s no chance of getting any money out of them anyway, then just ignore the threats and do whatever you’d regularly do : collections and/or small claims. If she still keeps threatening, then you can start threatening back (carefully avoiding specific threats of course, and keeping everything to vague musings about potential problems), with references to ‘awarding attorney’s fees’, ‘bar association’, ‘interesting things might come up in discovery’ and phrases like that. Pay your attorney for an hour or two of making your not-quite-threats legally convincing and demonstrating that you do have access to competent legal counsel. I would bet heavily that it would end up like **Rick** ’s case. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/62 "2014-06-23T15:09:32Z")
And the $240,000 that the attorney client is claiming is _eighty times_ the amount she owes. Surely a judge is going to be skeptical that a dispute over a $3,000 bill results in damages of eighty times that amount? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/63 "2014-06-23T15:25:58Z")
> [@Fishtar](#): > > Just send him to collections, like you would anyone else. Seems like the type that likes to see what he can get away with. Once you ding his credit, he will be more willing to talk. This. It likely varies by state. In the late 1980’s, I went to Costa Rica and Boston ( two locations that always are mentioned in the same sentences ! ) on a job for an industrial video client based in Philadelphia. I’d shot a few gigs for them before and had no reason to believe I’d not be paid fairly promptly. ( 30-45 days was the accepted norm back then. ) The months rolled by. Not a dime, not a promise of a dime. For 6 months they plead poverty, claiming their client never paid them. I finally crossed (what is in my mind) a very bright line, and called my client’s client. You spend a week in Costa Rica up in the rain forest at a coffee plantation working all day, you bond with people. I had the guy’s card. I explained that I was calling only to verify that he’d paid this company. He was outraged on my behalf and wanted to call up the production company himself. I asked him not to, that I just needed to know. Indeed, he had paid 1/3 upon contract, 1/3 when shooting wrapped and 1/3 upon delivery of project. Fairly standard, again. I was bereft of solutions. One of the owners of the video company was an attorney and he made it clear I could try to sue but I’d lose every penny of the $ 7,200.00 owed to me in legal fees, probably more, and he’d just keep postponing until eventually I gave up. My Dad, a smart fellow, had the idea of calling local Collection Agencies. Ah ! I called a few in the city of Philadelphia. Two or three wanted no part of it, but the last fellow was interested. For a tiny flat fee they’d write a letter. For a slightly larger fee they’d inform that they intended to file suit. For a percentage owed they’d sue- and if they lost I owed them not one penny. If I won, they would get 30% of the amount owed. Most importantly, a judgement against the company in small claims court from a collection agency immediately impacts their credit rating. Since their Edit system and other gear was leased, my suit could stop them from being able to finance new gear to run their company. Armed with these facts, I called the attorney/ partner back and told him he’d not be hearing from me ever again. That there were two outcomes. 1. He’d see me in court. He’d also see HIS client, who had promised to testify on my behalf and provide records of payment. I’d win. His credit would be damaged, and no amount of legal crapola from him could undo the damage done. 2. He would FedEx me a set of pre-dated signed checks. 10 of them, each for $ 720.00. Once a week I would deposit them. If one bounced, I’d sue for all of it. If he called and asked me to wait a few weeks because money was tight, I’d sue for all of it. He’d sign a document that was faxed to him detailing this agreement. When the 10th check was cleared, the debt was fulfilled. I told him it was his choice, and that I’d not be calling him again. An hour later he called me back to tell me that FedEx was to deliver an envelope the next morning. Every check cleared like clockwork. Collection Agencies. Yes, indeedy. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/64 "2014-06-23T19:14:15Z")
A lawyer running a collection agency in New Orleans was harassing my client, so I sent a piss off and die fax back at him. That night Katrina hit and his office ceased to exist. Never underestimate the power of the pen. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/65 "2014-06-23T21:48:04Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > He’d sign a document that was faxed to him detailing this agreement. I doubt that document was very significant, other than psychologically. It wasn’t a valid contract, unless you both offered to do something you weren’t already contractually obligated to do. But good for you! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/66 "2014-06-24T01:25:42Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > A lawyer running a collection agency in New Orleans was harassing my client, so I sent a piss off and die fax back at him. That night Katrina hit and his office ceased to exist. Never underestimate the power of the pen. Do you offer this service to others? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/67 "2014-06-24T02:09:23Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I doubt that document was very significant, other than psychologically. It wasn’t a valid contract, unless you both offered to do something you weren’t already contractually obligated to do. > > But good for you! I had no deal memo in place when I did the job, just a verbal. So in a way, this confirmed that I did the work, had not been paid and had arranged payment. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/68 "2014-06-24T03:06:27Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Do you offer this service to others? And do you require a lock of hair, toenail clippings or both? ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/69 "2014-06-24T06:49:18Z")
Search the phone book for an attorney with the same surname.he’s your brother. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/70 "2014-06-24T15:11:06Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Exuding confidence isn’t that hard. Every salesman “exudes confidence”. > > Pick someone who seems like he knows what he’s talking about, not a good salesman. I cannot disagree with what you said. However, I would like to try to explain my motivation. It seems like about half the lawyers I have med (especially criminal lawyers) are kind of “milktoasts”. That is to say, they do not seem very confident and when they get into court they seem like real wimps. They seem easy to push around and they just don’t seem to stand up for their clients. If I need a lawyer, I want one who … well … perhaps a story told by Abraham Lincoln might best explain what I mean. Lincoln once addressed a group and told them that when he hires a lawyer, he wants one who looks like he is fighting off a swarm of bees with just one hand. My interpretation of that is that he expects any lawyer representing him to appear to be very busy fighting the opposing counsel and standing up to the judge. I hope that goes a little way towards explaining what I was trying to convey. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/71 "2014-06-24T15:36:30Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > …perhaps a story told by Abraham Lincoln might best explain what I mean. Lincoln once addressed a group and told them that when he hires a lawyer, he wants one who looks like he is fighting off a swarm of bees with just one hand… When I visited the Lincoln Museum in Springfield a few years ago, there was display on Lincoln’s religious views. It quoted him as saying, “I like a preacher who looks like he’s fighting bees.” ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/72 "2014-06-25T11:18:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > When I visited the Lincoln Museum in Springfield a few years ago, there was display on Lincoln’s religious views. It quoted him as saying, “I like a preacher who looks like he’s fighting bees.” Thank you Elendil’s Heir. I’m pretty sure the story I read said that Lincoln was talking about lawyers. But I could be mistaken. I was once charged with a criminal offense. It was completely bogus and it was dismissed without my ever having to make a plea. But to find a good lawyer, a few weeks before I was scheduled to appear, I went to the largest criminal court in my city and I watched lawyers at work all day long. I was amazed to see how many of those lawyers behaved like such wimps - like “milktoasts”. They never seemed to argue with anything the prosecutor said and they never seemed to stand up to the judge. I would never want a lawyer who behaved like that to defend me. I want a lawyer who at least appears to be willing to fight. I finally found a good one but it’s kind of a long story and I’ll tell you about it one day if anyone wants to know. But not just right now please. But I just can’t believe what I saw happen to people who accepted being represented by a court cousel. Darn! I forget the name of those lawyers that are kept on hand by the court to be used to represent people who have no lawyers. Maybe they are called “Duty Counsels”? Anyway, those lawyers behaved as if they had just gotten out of law school. They never disputed anything the prosecutor said or recommended to the judge. Being represented by one of those people is almost like being represented by no one. If I need a lawyer, I want one who is willing to fight for me - one who is at least confident they can help me. That lawyer may not be able to help me. But if they behave as if I’m guity and there is nothing they can do for me, it would seem to me like I’m as good as sunk. So, that is what I was trying to say above. If someone needs a lawyer, they should try to find one who at the very least acts like they care about helping you. One who acts like there is a chance they can help you. Othwerwise, I would guess you are as good as sunk. It was just incredible to me watching lawyer after lawyer who did nothing to defend their clients. They may have been a duty counsel and they may have just been assigned this client by the court. But if they behave like their client is guilty and they don’t care about getting them off, what use are they to their client? If you ever need a lawyer, a good thread might be ways to help you find that lawyer. One way that I figured would be good would be to go down to the courthouse and watch lawyers perform and select one that you figured would fight for you. Another might be to try to do some research and find a lawyer who wins cases of the kind you are charged with. If you are charged with some bogus crime by the police, I would want to find a lawyer who has (in the past) successfully sued the police and gotten substantial damage awards for their clients. I wish the OP the best of luck and I hope they are able to find a way to extricate themselves from this mess. It strikes me as just (words fail me but “infuriating” is pretty close) that a lawyer today can behave that way and get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/73 "2014-06-25T13:59:44Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I was amazed to see how many of those lawyers behaved like such wimps - like “milktoasts”. They never seemed to argue with anything the prosecutor said and they never seemed to stand up to the judge. I would never want a lawyer who behaved like that to defend me. I want a lawyer who at least appears to be willing to fight. Got a dear friend who is an attorney. She of the gentle voice and broad smile. She’s been in private firm practice, corporate legal department practice and is now an Assistant District Attorney for a large city on the East Coast. I’ve never gone to see her in court. Nowadays she’d be in the Federal Courthouse in her city. I ought to go one day. Her husband, a close pal, describes it with pride and awe. She’s a deeply seated feral quality to her and apparently she is completely lethal in court. She loses, but exceedingly rarely. The few times I’ve had an attorney by my side, I’ve felt that I’d contracted for a protective partner. Looking out for me and guiding me through waters utterly alien to my scope of experience. A spineless public defender isn’t an attorney in that sense. It’s someone punching a clock to milk a municipal teat. In the current parlance, hashtag contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/74 "2014-06-25T15:28:01Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Got a dear friend who is an attorney. She of the gentle voice and broad smile. She’s been in private firm practice, corporate legal department practice and is now an Assistant District Attorney for a large city on the East Coast. > > I’ve never gone to see her in court. Nowadays she’d be in the Federal Courthouse in her city. I ought to go one day. Her husband, a close pal, describes it with pride and awe. She’s a deeply seated feral quality to her and apparently she is completely lethal in court. She loses, but exceedingly rarely. > > The few times I’ve had an attorney by my side, I’ve felt that I’d contracted for a protective partner. Looking out for me and guiding me through waters utterly alien to my scope of experience. > > A spineless public defender isn’t an attorney in that sense. It’s someone punching a clock to milk a municipal teat. In the current parlance, hashtag contempt. Sounds to me like … If I was you, I would love to see my friend in action. I would ask her if we could go to lunch one day and then I would go to the court in the morning and find out if she will be appearing in any public courtroom on that day and then I would go and sit in the back and watch but never, ever speak a world. I think you might be in for a big surprise because when someone has studied for most of their life in a specific profession, I would suspect their behavior when they are practicing that profession could be tremendously different from their every day behavior. Before I finish this post, it occurs to me that it would probably be best for you to ask her permission before you do this. She may not appreciate being surprised by your presence in her public arena. In any event, it can’t hurt to ask her permission. If she says, “Yes”, that would be great. But if she says, “No”, then just think what might have happened had you surprised her. You may well have risked harming your friendship and if you value that friendship, then … I bet you know where this is going. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/75 "2014-06-25T15:51:14Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > Darn! I forget the name of those lawyers that are kept on hand by the court to be used to represent people who have no lawyers. Maybe they are called “Duty Counsels”? Public Defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/76 "2014-06-25T17:05:50Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > …A spineless public defender isn’t an attorney in that sense. It’s someone punching a clock to milk a municipal teat. In the current parlance, hashtag contempt. I’ve dealt with a lot of public defenders over the years, and IME most are conscientious, hard-working and want to get the best possible result for their clients. The best also develop the skill of quickly evaluating cases and seeing which should be pled out and which should go to trial. A client who doesn’t share his PD’s view of the merits of his case can insist on a trial, of course, but far more often than not, he would’ve been wise to accept the PD’s advice to plead to a lesser charge, if one were offered. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/77 "2014-06-25T19:11:19Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Public Defenders. Depends on the jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/78 "2014-06-25T20:41:19Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’ve dealt with a lot of public defenders over the years, and IME most are conscientious, hard-working and want to get the best possible result for their clients. The best also develop the skill of quickly evaluating cases and seeing which should be pled out and which should go to trial. A client who doesn’t share his PD’s view of the merits of his case can insist on a trial, of course, but far more often than not, he would’ve been wise to accept the PD’s advice to plead to a lesser charge, if one were offered. I can’t help but get this nagging feeling about someone who did not do the crime but everyone tells them it would be better for them to accept the deal. What happens when the deal involves doing more than say two years in a prison and it’s for a crime they didn’t commit? I understand the alternative might be terribly worse - like maybe ten or twenty years in prison. But how can someone justify spending a year or two in prison and if they have a family and a business and a home, how can they ever just throw all that away for something of which they are innocent? As I understand it, in most cases, people who are married and have families and homes and businesses usually stand to lose them all if they go to prison for a year or two. Don’t they? How can someone ever make a decision about something like that? I fear it would just be too much for me. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/79 "2014-06-26T03:59:43Z")
The prosecutors and “public defenders” horse-trade their cases. They wheel and deal with other’s peoples’ lives, freedoms, and fortunes, deciding which cases to let the DA have and which to let the PD have. DA to PD: Hey, we got this guy caught sitting in a public park minding his own business where a paranoid parent accused him of glancing at her little kid in the playground. You can have the next five jay-walkers and stop-sign runners. This dude is _mine._ ETA: Heard it from the source: A guy who’s been wrung through the wringer. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098/80 "2014-06-26T15:35:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’ve dealt with a lot of public defenders over the years, and IME most are conscientious, hard-working and want to get the best possible result for their clients. The best also develop the skill of quickly evaluating cases and seeing which should be pled out and which should go to trial. A client who doesn’t share his PD’s view of the merits of his case can insist on a trial, of course, but far more often than not, he would’ve been wise to accept the PD’s advice to plead to a lesser charge, if one were offered. Um. Notice the word “spineless” in there. I wasn’t in any way besmirching all PD’s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-bullied-by-an-attorney/691098.md?page=5)