# Being robbed - safer to pull a gun or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111 "2011-09-21T21:37:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/121 "2011-09-27T21:41:03Z")
I like how your foam knife LARPing is more relevent than it actually happening to me, well played. I have martial arts experience with weapons, I can probably pull and flip a balisong and stab somepne pretty fast, too. Has absolutely nothing to do with a real life or death situation, though. You would know that intuitively if you’ve been the victim of mugging instead of playing with toys and playing cowboy. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/122 "2011-09-27T21:54:30Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I like how your foam knife LARPing is more relevent than it actually happening to me, well played. It’s more relevant to the scenario of escalating to an armed conflict, which has never happened to you by your own admission. > [@](#): > > I have martial arts experience with weapons How did you train, if not with rubber knives? Or is it not “LARPing” when you do it? > [@](#): > > , I can probably pull and flip a balisong and stab somepne pretty fast, too. Has absolutely nothing to do with a real life or death situation, though. You would know that intuitively if you’ve been the victim of mugging instead of playing with toys and playing cowboy. Er, I have been mugged. So have several of my friends. I said that upthread. Do you haven any real world experience with quick-drawing firearms, or with anything like tactical pistol courses? Have you ever measured your own ability to draw, aim, and fire a pistol rapidly under high-adrenaline conditions? How do you square your assertions against, not even counting my own experiments, the data collected and promulgated by SWAT officers and police training courses concerning the inadvisability of drawing weapons while in a close-quarters situation? Also, could you make up your mind on the quality and state of armed-ness of your local gangers, who are apparently prepared to kill you for an insult AND decide to beat you up and fail. > [@rogerbox](#): > > I don’t think you should call a Chicago GD a “wuss” to their face since they will probably kill you. It doesn’t make you a “wuss” to use a gun over fists, just a more serious breed of violent criminal. > [@rogerbox](#): > > I was punched multiple times by gang members and never got even close to losing consciousness, so I would do fine if I pulled a gun and got lunged at with a punch Look, all the LARP insults you’ve brought won’t change the fact that I’ve proposed a scenario that involves the two relevant things–to wit, ability to draw and fire with useful accuracy at point-blank vs. ability to stop that happening. Meanwhile, you’re claiming a comic-book spider sense that hasn’t ever misled you and gives you half a minute of warning. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/123 "2011-09-27T22:13:19Z")
The only one claiming a spider sense is you. Since you obviously have an active imagination, let me take the opportunity to educate you a bit: humans are social creatures. Consciously or not you are giving off social cues constantly that give insights to your mood and mindset. Even babies can pick up on these things. So when someone is eyeing me up to examine how easy a victim I would be and how much money i am likely to carry, it isn’t a spider sense to notice when they start following you after you leave the train station. Nothing supernatural bout it, unfortubately awareness doesn’t help much when you dont have the tools to fight back or the means to get away. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/124 "2011-09-27T22:20:46Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > So when someone is eyeing me up to examine how easy a victim I would be and how much money i am likely to carry, it isn’t a spider sense to notice when they start following you after you leave the train station. Nothing supernatural bout it, unfortubately awareness doesn’t help much when you dont have the tools to fight back or the means to get away. Are you going to answer the question about your gun ownership and practice? I note you’re studiously dodging it, which leads me to believe you are not quite as authoritative on quick-drawing as you appear to be claiming to be. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/125 "2011-09-27T23:06:42Z")
I never claimed to be an authority on quick drawing. I have handled firearms and weapons before but I have not studied quick drawing a weapon formally. Neither have gang members, so it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/126 "2011-09-27T23:32:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s right Lady Derringer. Convicts have all sorts of rights that citizens don’t have.:rolleyes: > > How does he plan to do all this without the back of his head? > Muggers are not all-powerful supervillians. Of course you are better off having a gun IF 1) you are prepared to use it and 2) he isn’t so close to you that 3) he is big enough to wrestle it away from you. I mean it’s not like anyone except the craziest crackhead wants your wallet so bad they are willing to risk death for it. If you shoot someone in the back of his head, doesn’t that mean he’s already leaving? That takes away your self-defence claim (excepting some movie-like situations - he’s completely turned away from you to tell his friends to kill you) and, if you miss, really pisses him off. In most muggings, the assailant is close enough to you to get your stuff, ergo they’re close enough to disarm you too. > [@rogerbox](#): > > The only one claiming a spider sense is you. Since you obviously have an active imagination, let me take the opportunity to educate you a bit: humans are social creatures. Consciously or not you are giving off social cues constantly that give insights to your mood and mindset. Even babies can pick up on these things. > > So when someone is eyeing me up to examine how easy a victim I would be and how much money i am likely to carry, it isn’t a spider sense to notice when they start following you after you leave the train station. Nothing supernatural bout it, unfortubately awareness doesn’t help much when you dont have the tools to fight back or the means to get away. Presumably you’re not shooting everyone you think is following you from the train station, so either you’re taking other actions - like moving to the other side of the road, dialling ‘91’ and keeping your thumb paused over the other ‘1,’ moving into more lighted areas where possible, taking on a more consciously assertive body language, and all the various other things you can do to persuade potential attackers that you’re not the best target that night - or you’re rarely faced with the prospect of someone possibly following you from the train station at night. ‘Pulling a gun’ isn’t the only or even the best option. Having a gun might even be worse in a way, if it makes you think you don’t need to bother with diversionary tactics. If they’re actually going to rob you on the street you can’t be sure of that till they say or do something a hell of a lot more obvious than walking on the same side of the road as you after the train station, and they’ll be a lot closer when they do so. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/127 "2011-09-28T02:34:41Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I never claimed to be an authority on quick drawing. I have handled firearms and weapons before but I have not studied quick drawing a weapon formally. Neither have gang members, so it doesn’t matter. It absolutely does, when YOU have to quick-draw and HE just has to beat on you. Nothing could be more relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/128 "2011-09-28T03:38:47Z")
Anecdotes are not data. > [@rogerbox](#): > > In all 3 instances I was mugged I had at least 30 seconds of EXTREME awareness something bad was going to happen with which I could’ve armed myself and made enough threat for the muggers that they would’ve moved on to look for someone else, had I a weapon. … A single person’s three examples does not constitute a reasonable basis for generalization. FWIW, my single mugging differs from rogerbox’s experiences. I turned a corner and the mugger was waiting for me (or rather somebody like me). No advanced warning. He brandished a weapon… sort of. He was simulating a firearm (actual or not) through his jacket. I can only imagine that me having a weapon would have needlessly escalated that situation. I gave him my cash (about $16?); he told me to turn around and don’t look back and that was it. He may have had an accomplice, so this falls into **Borzo** ’s 2nd category. All in all, I consider the experience a cost of doing business and have no inclination of acquiring a bang stick. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/129 "2011-09-28T03:58:39Z")
> [@Gus\_Handsome](#): > > Question for the legal eagles… > > Suppose I get mugged and I have a firearm on me but don’t use it because I deem it too risky. > As the mugger is walking away with my cash, if I pull my gun out and shoot him in the back, would I be in hot water? > > Thanks > Gus Yes. The threat is gone. You have no justification to use deadly force at this point. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/130 "2011-09-28T06:25:12Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Anecdotes are not data. A single person’s three examples does not constitute a reasonable basis for generalization. I never said that carrying a gun will ALWAYS be to your advantage in every mugging. I have no idea even what percentage it would help in, in mine all three instances even in retrospect I would’ve armed my then-self. I think it isn’t possible to intellectually argue that it is NEVER safer to be armed during a mugging. I honestly am surprised this is a controversial thought process, to me it is similar to the idiots who know someone who got killed in a car accident BECAUSE they were wearing their seatbelts and thus refuse to wear one. So I was never giving my anecdotes to be DATA other than I feel a gun would have helped in _those_ instances, and thus a gun is _at least more than never_ helpful during a mugging. I even conceded that there are some instances where a gun COULD work against you… IMO I am being much more reasonable than the people arguing with me are. We have also heard another poster who did some mighty fancing shooting to save his wife’s life, so I’m really confused about the mini pile-on. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/131 "2011-09-28T16:37:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it isn’t possible to intellectually argue that it is NEVER safer to be armed during a mugging. Well, nobody yet has managed to come up with a scenario where it would help. Scenarios involving ESP and shooting someone before they give any indication of mugging you don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/132 "2011-09-28T17:14:34Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I never said that carrying a gun will ALWAYS be to your advantage in every mugging. I have no idea even what percentage it would help in, in mine all three instances even in retrospect I would’ve armed my then-self. > > I think it isn’t possible to intellectually argue that it is NEVER safer to be armed during a mugging. I honestly am surprised this is a controversial thought process, to me it is similar to the idiots who know someone who got killed in a car accident BECAUSE they were wearing their seatbelts and thus refuse to wear one. > > So I was never giving my anecdotes to be DATA other than I feel a gun would have helped in _those_ instances, and thus a gun is _at least more than never_ helpful during a mugging. I even conceded that there are some instances where a gun COULD work against you… IMO I am being much more reasonable than the people arguing with me are. > > We have also heard another poster who did some mighty fancing shooting to save his wife’s life, so I’m really confused about the mini pile-on. 😕 You did actually start off by saying this: > [@](#): > > But no matter what any experts say, I will say “OF COURSE” a gun makes you safer in a mugging, unless it’s some stupid hypothetical where they already have a gun aimed at you and you then pull one…of course they will shoot. If you have a gun pulled first to show them you’re not the mark and tell them “Get away from me”, you will be fine. So you did say it would always be to your advantage except in some stupid hypothetical circumstances. The who (says) he shot his wife’s attacker wasn’t being mugged and TBH it sounds like a huge risk to take in order to save a car, but maybe there was more to it. Mugging is about taking property and requires the mugger to be physically only a few steps from you, so it is possible to reason that it would be extremely unlikely that it would help if you had a gun. That doesn’t mean guns wouldn’t be a help in _any_ kind of robbery. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/133 "2011-09-28T18:15:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The “old guy shooting a robber in the head” story doesn’t sound very believable, and even if its true was incredibly stupid - or psychopathic. After all, what the old man in that scenario is _actually doing_ is seriously risking shooting his wife in order to save some property. Kind of shows his priorities. His priority was saving his wife’s life and his into the bargain. When someone pulls a weapon and threatens to kill you or someone else, you take them at face value - your life is at risk. Assuming the story is true, he did a good thing, and deserves an ecology award for cleaning garbage out of the environment. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/134 "2011-09-28T18:31:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, nobody yet has managed to come up with a scenario where it would help. Scenarios involving ESP and shooting someone before they give any indication of mugging you don’t count. You are trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/135 "2011-09-28T20:33:19Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > You are trolling. [moderator note] It is against the rules to call someone a troll outside of the Pit. If you believe that someone is trolling, report their post and let us take care of it. No warning issued. [/moderator note] ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/136 "2011-09-28T20:58:48Z")
[moderating] I think this thread has drifted well out of GQ territory. Rather than trying to bring it back, I’m just sending it over to Great Debates. Debate rules now apply. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/137 "2011-09-29T06:34:27Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > His priority was saving his wife’s life and his into the bargain. When someone pulls a weapon and threatens to kill you or someone else, you take them at face value - your life is at risk. > > Assuming the story is true, he did a good thing, and deserves an ecology award for cleaning garbage out of the environment. I’d prefer not to shoot and kill robbers: I’d prefer to put them in jail. I don’t applaud at another’s death. I’ve noticed a tendency among some gun advocates to initiate debates with proud claims of defending the innocent and then segueing into bloodthirsty murder fantasy. Then again, this is all based on a recollection of a propaganda piece written by the gun seller’s lobby, so the discussion is rather silly. I don’t cite cornflakes ads in nutrition threads. ## At any rate, I am not surprised that the US has consistently higher murder rates than other OECD countries. Cutting **rogerbox** some slack, I would suppose that a gun might help an off-duty cop apprehend a thief: **pkbites** has referenced some scenarios that he has run through his head. I maintain that firearms are far more problematic self defense tools than advertised and it’s by no means clear to me whether they advance or destroy most of their user’s life expectancy. But like all tools they have potential uses, though I’ll venture that in this context such constructive use isn’t particularly well understood. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/138 "2011-09-29T06:52:11Z")
I have a friend with a CCW permit, who agrees with me that there is almost no scenario where having a gun will help you defend yourself on the street. He supports CCW for the reason that it makes the robbers’ problems more complicated. Who is armed? Who isn’t? Am I gonna end up in a gunfight for 50 bucks? So robbers will rob less because they are more fearful of potential bad outcomes. This may be true – I have no idea. I am skeptical because I don’t think robbers do a lot of thinking about the consequences of robbery. I doubt they’re smart enough to be neurotic about their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/139 "2011-09-29T15:33:33Z")
If he actually believes that a gun couldn’t help during a robbery then he is stupid for concealed carrying, because then robbers get a free gun from him. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111/140 "2011-09-29T15:37:46Z")
I have no idea if he carries or not, but he supports the right because it sows confusion in the minds of robbers, supposedly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-robbed-safer-to-pull-a-gun-or-not/597111.md?page=8)