# Being w/ small groups of people not part of your household bubble? Y, N, maybe? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [September 3, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705 "2020-09-03T12:06:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/81 "2020-09-06T21:42:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That seems like an overstatement. Depending on it, especially in the near to medium term seems overconfident, but “exceedingly likely … never”? You are correct, my choice of words was poor. Perhaps a better phrasing would have been “not at all unlikely” or " far from a foregone conclusion". The point being that assuming a vaccine is going to put an end to these draconian distancing measures is completely inappropriate. It’s a real possibility that right now we are seeing the new normal, and you may need to start figuring out how to live a semi-normal live with that new scary reality. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/82 "2020-09-06T21:53:00Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Right. But when those countless choices involve harming or killing others, they’re generally illegal, as they well should be. You may have the right to endanger your own life; you don’t have the legal or moral right to endanger others. You have a compulsive need for hyperbole, don’t you? 12 months ago, I could sneeze near you and give you the flu, which could kill you. Tomorrow someone could crash their car into you on the sidewalk and kill you. There’s lots of ways the actions of people around you can cause you harm which are not crimes. It comes with the territory of living in a society. If you endeavor for a life of zero risk you’ll need to make a lot more changes than just those suggested for COVID. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/83 "2020-09-06T22:10:28Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > If your position is that ANY risk, being that we’re now 9 months into this thing, is too much risk…how will you manage once we reach a point 2, 3, 5 years on with no vaccine? We’ll need to begin getting our heads around the idea that this is something we’ll need to live with for a while. That’s not my position, but that is precisely my question. > [@Omniscient](#): > > You have a compulsive need for hyperbole, don’t you? You have a gift for unintentional irony. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/84 "2020-09-06T22:43:07Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Of course. As is the case w/ countless choices we routinely make in matters other than COVID. > > So what are you saying by your example - that you are fortunate that both of your parents lived past 85? > > And your dad is making his choice, and is willing to have you bear the repercussions. So his choice should somehow burden the rest of society? Wow. I was just using my example of me taking precautions by wearing a face shield-mask set-up so she can see my face. The excuse is that people don’t want to wear masks because they can’t see faces. Well, I gave an example of how someone can see your face. With all the options out there, I don’t see how this is such a major inconvenience. But, somehow this turns out to me thanking my lucky stars that my parents aren’t dead yet from covid or something else. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/85 "2020-09-06T22:55:24Z")
I’m not sure what his point was…it was a bit of a non-sequitur, but I do think it’s fair to say that the entire society can’t adopt a standard that’s built around the needs of 90 year olds in failing health. I know the maskholes have turned that idea into the equivalent of saying we should just let the old people die, but that’s not my point. Just that you and your family have special needs…I don’t think that’s the metric that the general populace needs to align around. It’s not practical. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/86 "2020-09-07T00:43:53Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Just that you and your family have special needs…I don’t think that’s the metric that the general populace needs to align around. It’s not practical. My needs are that special. Thelma Lou describe her group as people who either had ‘special needs’ themselves or were married to people with ‘special needs’. I’m simply talking about masks and being outside for gatherings, especially when people in the gathering are in a higher risk category. I still don’t get why the people in Thelma Lou’s group won’t wear masks or even shields for outside and throw a mask on for inside. It will be much safer for everyone, including Thelma Lou. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/87 "2020-09-07T00:54:53Z")
Do you mind explaining more clearly this mask shield set up? I think I must be imaging it incorrectly. It sounds like a face shield with the mask off your nose and mouth and just on your chin (so she can see your face), while in close indoor exposure to a very high risk person for more than brief contact. Do I have that right or do I misunderstand? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/88 "2020-09-07T02:17:06Z")
Nope. This is an open forum, so you have the right to spew as much vitriol as you like toward any comments I may make. I, however, will be ignoring them, since it’s obvious you’re not engaging in logical, legitimate discussion. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/89 "2020-09-07T02:46:12Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > > [@nelliebly](#): > > > > Right. But when those countless choices involve harming or killing others, they’re generally illegal, as they well should be. You may have the right to endanger your own life; you don’t have the legal or moral right to endanger others. > > You have a compulsive need for hyperbole, don’t you? > > 12 months ago, I could sneeze near you and give you the flu, which could kill you. Tomorrow someone could crash their car into you on the sidewalk and kill you. There’s lots of ways the actions of people around you can cause you harm which are not crimes. However, if you hadn’t noticed, there’s a pandemic currently going on. Actions that might not have been a crime 12 months ago are now, because circumstances have changed. Go ahead and intentionally sneeze or cough on someone now, and you might just get yourself arrested. Numerous examples online abound. Here’s one: > **[A Man Coughed on a Wegmans Employee. Now He’s Charged With a Felony....](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/us/coronavirus-terrorism-nj.html)** > > George Falcone told an employee at a grocery store in New Jersey that he had the coronavirus, the authorities said. P.S. I’m pretty sure that if someone were to crash their car into you on a sidewalk and kill you that they very well could be charged with a crime depending on the circumstances. Were they drunk or texting? Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/90 "2020-09-07T02:54:40Z")
But the point is valid. Potential to harm others is not by itself a legal or even ethical/moral bright line. Every time I drive a car I subject others to the risk I could harm them. Someone who declines to get a flu vaccine increases others’ risks. Eating meat increases CO2 and increases risks to others. There is some level of significance to the risk balanced against the demands imposed upon others to avoid it. Where does insisting that others wear masks when meeting outside distanced by 6 feet or more fall into that spectrum when your simply not attending if it is outside your comfort zone is an option? ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/91 "2020-09-07T03:00:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Do you mind explaining more clearly this mask shield set up? I think I must be imaging it incorrectly. It sounds like a face shield with the mask off your nose and mouth and just on your chin (so she can see your face), while in close indoor exposure to a very high risk person for more than brief contact. Do I have that right or do I misunderstand? Most the time I have the mask over my nose and mouth with the shield on over it while I’m cleaning, cooking, yardwork, etc. However, the mask is very large and I can literally pull it down and it cups my chin and goes up the sides of my face. Sort of like this picture except it wouldn’t be attached and the shield doesn’t stick out as much. [Latest Badger Shield design draws global attention](https://madison.com/ct/news/local/education/latest-badger-shield-design-draws-global-attention/article_0d860cee-522d-523a-a1b9-25357ce9daa1.html) People are using shields like this for working with deaf students or other people who are hard of hearing. I just happened to have this mask that was large enough to do that with. But other people can buy masks that are transparent over their mouths so they can see each other speak. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/92 "2020-09-07T03:11:08Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Go ahead and intentionally sneeze or cough on someone now, and you might just get yourself arrested. Nice strawman. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/93 "2020-09-07T03:15:45Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > > [@DSeid](#): > > > > Do you mind explaining more clearly this mask shield set up? I think I must be imaging it incorrectly. It sounds like a face shield with the mask off your nose and mouth and just on your chin (so she can see your face), while in close indoor exposure to a very high risk person for more than brief contact. Do I have that right or do I misunderstand? > > Most the time I have the mask over my nose and mouth with the shield on over it while I’m cleaning, cooking, yardwork, etc. However, the mask is very large and I can literally pull it down and it cups my chin and goes up the sides of my face. Sort of like this picture except it wouldn’t be attached and the shield doesn’t stick out as much. [Latest Badger Shield design draws global attention](https://madison.com/ct/news/local/education/latest-badger-shield-design-draws-global-attention/article_0d860cee-522d-523a-a1b9-25357ce9daa1.html) > People are using shields like this for working with deaf students or other people who are hard of hearing. > > I just happened to have this mask that was large enough to do that with. But other people can buy masks that are transparent over their mouths so they can see each other speak Does the face shield seal against the sides of your face at all? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/94 "2020-09-07T03:35:06Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > It’s exceedingly likely we will never have a vaccine. While I’m not certain we will get a vaccine, it seems more likely than not right now. > [@Omniscient](#): > > We don’t have an HIV vaccine, we don’t have a SARS or MERS vaccine, we don’t have a set of “common cold” rhinovirus vaccines, we don’t have a Herpes or Hepatitis or Zika or Dengue or West Nile vaccine, we don’t have vaccines for many, many common debilitating viruses. HIV directly infects immune cells. SARS and MERS were contained before vaccines could be tested. The problems with testing them were “not enough people are being exposed any more” The common cold isn’t worth the cost and risk of developing a vaccine, especially as it’s a LOT of viruses. We have safe and effective vaccines for both Hepatitis A and B. Not for C. I recommend the Hep AB vaccine if you like to eat oysters or have any non-trivial risk factors for Hep B. Zika is still pretty new, and hasn’t done a lot of damage in wealthy parts of the world. Dengue represents the real risk – vaccines do have the potential to make a virus worse. There’s not a human vaccine for west nile, but unless I’m mistaking it with some other similar virus, there IS an equine vaccine. You know why? It’s a lot cheaper to test an equine vaccine. You buy a lot of cheap horses and vaccinate half of them and then infect them all with the virus. A few months later you have statistically valid results, and can sell your vaccine to the owners of expensive race horses. This illustrates the typical reason we don’t have a vaccine – it wasn’t worth it. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/95 "2020-09-07T04:10:23Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > Go ahead and intentionally sneeze or cough on someone now, and you might just get yourself arrested. > > Nice strawman. 🤨 How is this a straw man argument? You wrote, “12 months ago, I could sneeze near you and give you the flu, which could kill you.” That’s true (though the part about potentially killing someone by infecting them with influenza is a fairly remote risk), and if you went around sneezing near people last year, at worst you would get a dirty look. Today, if you go up to someone and cough or sneeze in their vicinity without a mask, especially if you tell them you are infected with COVID-19 (whether true or not), you will get a much more dramatic reaction from people, up to and including the possibility of being arrested for assault. Why? Because we are in a pandemic, and the risk is perceived by people to be far greater than 12 months ago. My point is that people’s perceptions of the risk from being infected by others has changed dramatically in the last year, and for good reason. Over 180,000 people have died in the U.S. due to this disease just in the last six months, along with many others who are still recovering and may be dealing with chronic disabilities for the rest of their lives as a result of being infected with COVID-19. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/96 "2020-09-07T04:17:17Z")
Maybe you don’t know what a strawman is? Adding the “intentionally sneezing on someone” or “telling them you are COVID positive” were not statements I made. You created those scenarios to create a fake argument you can make a case against, ignoring the actual meaning of my statement. But I suspect you’re being rhetorical here. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/97 "2020-09-07T05:29:16Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Maybe you don’t know what a strawman is? Adding the “intentionally sneezing on someone” or “telling them you are COVID positive” were not statements I made. You created those scenarios to create a fake argument you can make a case against, ignoring the actual meaning of my statement. Again, the statement you made was: “12 months ago, I could sneeze near you and give you the flu, which could kill you. …There’s lots of ways the actions of people around you can cause you harm which are not crimes." I responded: “Go ahead and intentionally sneeze or cough on someone now, and you might just get yourself arrested.” Now granted, I did add the word “intentionally” (because it’s generally a precondition for something to be charged as a crime), and “on” as opposed to “near.” You called that a straw man. If your whole beef is with the word “intentionally” and “on” vs. “near,” it seems to me that this is a fairly superficial objection. My larger point was that harms or potential harms that would never have been charged as a crime 12 months ago (like intentionally sneezing on or near someone, or failing to quarantine) might well be today – because today we are in a pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/98 "2020-09-07T11:59:04Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > > [@Tfletch1](#): > > > > > [@DSeid](#): > > > > > > Do you mind explaining more clearly this mask shield set up? I think I must be imaging it incorrectly. It sounds like a face shield with the mask off your nose and mouth and just on your chin (so she can see your face), while in close indoor exposure to a very high risk person for more than brief contact. Do I have that right or do I misunderstand? > > > > Most the time I have the mask over my nose and mouth with the shield on over it while I’m cleaning, cooking, yardwork, etc. However, the mask is very large and I can literally pull it down and it cups my chin and goes up the sides of my face. Sort of like this picture except it wouldn’t be attached and the shield doesn’t stick out as much. [Latest Badger Shield design draws global attention](https://madison.com/ct/news/local/education/latest-badger-shield-design-draws-global-attention/article_0d860cee-522d-523a-a1b9-25357ce9daa1.html) > > People are using shields like this for working with deaf students or other people who are hard of hearing. > > > > I just happened to have this mask that was large enough to do that with. But other people can buy masks that are transparent over their mouths so they can see each other speak > > Does the face shield seal against the sides of your face at all? The picture at the link appears to seal at the sides. But it’s hard to tell for sure. There are at least three active Kickstarter campaigns right now for facemasks that show your mouth clearly. They are all clear about sealing around the edges. One is similar to this, sort of a face shield modified to seal around the edges with a filter built into the seal. One is a hunk is silicone that sticks to your face, with a pair of filters incorporated roughly over the cheeks. And the third is a polycarbonate thing shaped roughly like an n95 mask only it has an opaque soft part between the face and the “mask”, and again, it has filters built in around the edge, where they don’t block visibility of the mouth very much. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/99 "2020-09-07T12:16:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There are at least three active Kickstarter campaigns right now for facemasks that show your mouth clearly. They are all clear about sealing around the edges. I started a thread about this back in July. > [@Clear masks or masks with a clear window](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/clear-masks-or-masks-with-a-clear-window/916492/45): > > This showed up in my newsfeed this morning. I believe these will catch on. [https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB17lqxo?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare](https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB17lqxo?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare) There are a bunch of links in the article. I got those masks from amazon, but I haven’t worn any yet. They need to be bigger. As I said in that thread, this is an idea whose time has come. We can’t go for another year without seeing each other’s faces. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > SARS and MERS were contained before vaccines could be tested. The problems with testing them were “not enough people are being exposed any more” That’s certainly not a problem any more! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705/100 "2020-09-07T12:41:34Z")
Explicitly what is being used is not what is in the picture, is not attached and not sealed all around. Using a face shield, even a large one that curves around with a mask across the bottom some, while in close contact with a high risk individual, is doing something, but it is much less protection than wearing a mask in a risk circumstance in which a higher level of protection would be advisable. It would not be permitted in a nursing home, in any health care facility, or on an airplane. @Tfletch1 FWIW you may want to consider keeping the mask sealed over your nose to chin. I understand the importance of seeing your face but you’d be better off getting a mask with a clear panel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/being-w-small-groups-of-people-not-part-of-your-household-bubble-y-n-maybe/919705.md?page=6)