# Bektashi: Does Europe really need another microstate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 3, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114 "2024-12-03T14:46:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/1 "2024-12-03T14:46:18Z")
Consider: Vatican City, Monaco, San Marino, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Malta (to say nothing of Sealand). I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Europe has a surfeit of microstates and doesn’t need another. Yet, Albania is planning (threatening?) to create another one within the city of Tirana called the Sovereign State of the Bektashi Order > **[Sovereign State of the Bektashi Order](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_State_of_the_Bektashi_Order)** > > The Sovereign State of the Bektashi Order (Albanian: Shteti Sovran i Urdhrit Bektashi; .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[ʃtɛti sɔvɾan i uɾðɾit bɛktaʃi\]) is a proposed European microstate and city-state that would be enclaved entirely within Tirana, the capital of Albania, at the current World Headquarters of the Bektashi.... It’d be even smaller than the Vatican, only 27 acres (11 hectares) and also based on a religion. I think they’re just jealous of Rome. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/2 "2024-12-03T14:56:25Z")
Maybe “Europe” doesn’t need another microstate, but frankly it’s none of their business. Not ours either. If (some of) the Albanians want to do something stupid or pointless, and can get enough of their countrymen to go along, so be it. If the real purpose is to create a lawless enclave where organized crime can find refuge, well that’s a different matter. I’m not suggesting this is (or even might be) Bektashi’s purpose. Merely that any hypothetical microstate that did seem to have that purpose would be reason enough for larger forces to prevent its formation. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/3 "2024-12-03T19:06:18Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I think they’re just jealous of Rome. Rome actually has two of these. In addition to Vatican City, they also have a pseudo sovereign entity that’s **[so small](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta)** it doesn’t have any real territory beyond its Roman “embassy.” Edit to add: Incidentally, I’m planning a two week road trip through Albania in the spring. So if this new microstate happens in the next few months, I’ll make an effort to visit it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/4 "2024-12-03T19:43:57Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > it doesn’t have any real territory beyond its Roman “embassy.” When I was in Rome, a tour took us to their embassy There is no entry but you can look through a keyhole, see their courtyard and [the Vatican in the distance](https://www.orderofmalta.int/government/st-peter-basilica-through-the-keyhole/). It is the only place on Earth that looking through a keyhole you can see three countries. [![](https://www.orderofmalta.int/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Nicusor-Floroaica-Buco-della-serratura.jpg) ](https://www.orderofmalta.int/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Nicusor-Floroaica-Buco-della-serratura.jpg) [![](https://www.orderofmalta.int/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/NIC_0670.jpg) ](https://www.orderofmalta.int/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/NIC_0670.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/5 "2024-12-03T20:00:54Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > it doesn’t have any real territory beyond its Roman “embassy.” They also have a building in Rhodes that is their embassy to Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/6 "2024-12-03T20:08:12Z")
If you travel to Bektashi, leave a rock on a turnstile, or a coin on a gravestone in honor of @Beckdawrek. Those might be my peeps! Just sayin’ 😅 ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/7 "2024-12-03T20:19:16Z")
After reading the Wikipedia article and the _New York Times_ article on this proposed microstate, I confess that I still don’t grasp how extending sovereignty to this compound accomplishes anything. It seems especially odd for the Albanian prime minister to be pushing for this. > **[Albania Is Planning a New Muslim State Inside Its Capital](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/21/world/europe/albania-tirana-muslim-state-bektashi.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ek4.kwZC.mKVaZeDiDDCm&smid=url-share)** > > Prime Minister Edi Rama says he wants to give members of the Bektashi, a Shiite Sufi order, their own Vatican-style enclave as a way of promoting religious tolerance. I wonder if this microstate would count as a case of a country voluntarily giving up territory? > **[Do countries ever voluntarily give up territory?](https://www.straightdope.com/21344349/do-countries-ever-voluntarily-give-up-territory)** > [@Cervaise](#): > > I’m planning a two week road trip through Albania in the spring. So if this new microstate happens in the next few months, I’ll make an effort to visit it. That’ll be a great trip! It’s also well worth visiting [both of the bunker networks in Tirana](https://whatmegdidnext.com/bunk-art-2/), originally built for senior Party officials and now opened as museums of the communist era. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/8 "2024-12-03T20:48:46Z")
To answer the most important question: there will be an average of 9.09 dedebabas per square km, or 23.8 dedebabas per square mile. This beats the Vatican at 2.04 popes per km or 5.26 popes per mile, though there was a recent period 2013-2022 where these numbers were often doubled. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/9 "2024-12-03T20:51:39Z")
His Holiness Haji Dede Baba, aka Baba Mondi, aka Edmond Brahimaj seems to be a nice fellow with noble intentions if what the NYT in the article linked in the post above is true, so good luck to him. But once you set things in motion, consequences follow. Who will designate his successor? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/10 "2024-12-03T21:09:36Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > I wonder if this microstate would count as a case of a country voluntarily giving up territory? Of course it would. On reading Cecil’s column, I’m surprised he didn’t mention the resolution of the numerous enclaves that India and Bangladesh had in each other’s territory. Cecil’s column is dated Oct 2015 and India and Bangladesh finalized their agreement earlier that year. India lost about 40 square kilometers in the exchange. > **[India–Bangladesh enclaves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%80%93Bangladesh_enclaves)** > > The India–Bangladesh enclaves, also known as the Chiṭmahals (Bengali: ছিটমহল chiṭmôhôl) and sometimes called Pasha enclaves, were the enclaves along the Bangladesh–India border, in Bangladesh and the Indian states of West Bengal, Tripura, Assam and Meghalaya. The main body of Bangladesh contained 102 Indian enclaves, which in turn contained 21 Bangladeshi counter-enclaves, one of which contained Dahala Khagrabari, an Indian counter-counter-enclave, the world's only third-order encl The Prime M... ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/11 "2024-12-03T21:30:14Z")
It’s hard to guess what might be the point of this. Bektash is kind of an Albania-specific thing, so I guess making a microstate would help insulate this piece of cultural heritage from the previous changes in government that have affected the Bektash order in the past. Plus maybe elevating its stature relative to larger Islamic sects, maybe preventing those from gaining a larger foothold in the country. But that’s just speculation. Albania tends to march to its own drummer, so who knows. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/12 "2024-12-03T22:13:07Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > It’d be even smaller than the Vatican, only 27 acres That’s almost twice the size of my village green. Plenty of room for a cricket field and duck pond. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/13 "2024-12-03T22:22:30Z")
One microstate I find amusing is the Kingdom of Uganda, which was Uganda’s way of maintaining tradition when they evolved from a monarchy to a democracy. Basically, a couple of blocks was set aside in the capital city, and the king officially still rules there, with no power whatsoever outside of those couple of blocks. Also amusing, the Kingdom of Uganda’s citizenship rule is that any human physically within the bounds of the Kingdom has citizenship, for so long as they remain within the bounds. Leave the Kingdom, and you also leave your citizenship behind. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/14 "2024-12-03T23:49:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > the Kingdom of Uganda Interesting. The Republic of China tried that after they overthrew the Emperor. It didn’t last long. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/15 "2024-12-04T00:24:43Z")
This sounds less like a Muslim Vatican City and more like an Albanian Mt Athos. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/16 "2024-12-04T11:15:33Z")
The Master speaks on the general subject. > **[How do I go about starting my own country?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341955/how-do-i-go-about-starting-my-own-country)** ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/17 "2024-12-04T18:21:38Z")
It’s interesting to compare this proposed microstate to the [Knights of Malta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta#International_status). Considered somewhat sovereign. They own a lot of land in Italy but only two places are considered extraterritorial by Italy. Lots of diplomatic activities. They do coins and stamps. They even have a bit of a military. If Bektashi doesn’t do more than the Knights, then no one’s going to really consider it a state. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/18 "2024-12-04T18:27:47Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > It’s interesting to compare this proposed microstate to the [Knights of Malta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta#International_status). If only Cervaise had already done that in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2024, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bektashi-does-europe-really-need-another-microstate/1011114/19 "2024-12-04T20:33:20Z")
People who bury cites under words in their post that disguise what the cite is about sorta deserve to have their cites overlooked or ignored.