# Belief a CHOICE? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482 "2012-12-09T03:08:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/41 "2012-12-09T22:23:38Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > Lamia, > > re: “Then what was your point?” > > Simply what I wrote; You can’t believe - be convinced - that sometheing doesn’t exist or isn’ t true [or have no belief either way] AND at the same time believe that it does exist or that it is true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other. > > BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #32. I have met people who understand that there is no elf town full of toymakers up at the North Pole, on the other hand, they also believe that Santa Claus exists. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/42 "2012-12-09T22:27:50Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > Simply what I wrote; You can’t believe - be convinced - that sometheing doesn’t exist or isn’ t true [or have no belief either way] AND at the same time believe that it does exist or that it is true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other. No, what you wrote was: > [@rstrats](#): > > It has to imply that. You can’t believe - be convinced - that sometheing doesn’t exist or isn’ t true AND at the same time believe that it does exist or that it is true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other. You have now added in “[or have no belief either way]” as if that’s equivalent to being convinced that something is not true, but it isn’t. There’s also no reason why one must go instantly from total disbelief, or even lack of any belief, to being totally convinced that something is true. There’s a whole spectrum of uncertainty where one might think “I’m not sure what’s true, but X seems more likely than Y” or “I’ve only ever heard that Y is true but am not particularly invested in that idea, so reliable evidence of X would convince me to change my mind.” > [@](#): > > BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #32. I replied to post #32 with post #36. You may re-read it if you’re confused. You might want to pay particular attention to the part where I suggested learning how to use the quote feature. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/43 "2012-12-09T23:04:28Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > A number of folks on these boards are saying or at least implying that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. If you are one of them perhaps one of you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say,“OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? > > Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief? Yeah, cool story bro. Didn’t [Bernard Williams](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Williams) write a book about this in 1976? Why, indeed [he did](http://books.google.com/books?id=RwWEgc-m0U0C&pg=PA136)… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/44 "2012-12-10T01:52:52Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > Firstly, I don’t see how there can be degrees of belief - you either believe something or you don’t. Then you are not a [Bayesian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference). I most definitely have degrees of belief. I would have bet even money that Obama would win in July 2012. I would not have given 20:1 odds. I _would_ give 20:1 odds that the sun will rise tomorrow, that it will rain somewhere in the world, or that a Democrat will be President some time in February 2013. Those are degrees of belief. > [@](#): > > Secondly, if beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them, then evidence is not necessary (prudent in cases like your starter example) but not necessary. I think you imply that with your comment: “If I were a moron, evidence would have no relation to my degree of belief.” On choosing a belief: if belief is a matter of degree, then it may very well not be something that oscillates in an instantaneous manner. Others are correct that this issue comes up with Pascal’s wager: I disagree with **rstrats** , though I’ll note his view isn’t unusual. I was unaware that large numbers of people found this criticism of Pascal’s wager compelling: of course you can choose a belief, though the process may take a while. Beliefs follow behaviors and are susceptible to positive and negative reinforcement like anything else. That said, I would prefer to use the word “Manage” rather than “Choose”, given that we are dealing with a process rather than an instantaneous event. And in practice, our narrower beliefs will follow to some extent from our broader beliefs or habits. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/45 "2012-12-10T05:17:57Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > . . . re: “Being able to consciously choose your beliefs wouldn’t imply that youccould change them instantaneously.” > > It has to imply that. You can’t believe - be convinced - that sometheing doesn’t exist or isn’ t true AND at the same time believe that it does exist or that it is true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other. > [@rstrats](#): > > . . . I don’t see how there can be degrees of belief - you either believe something or you don’t. . . . > [@jackdavinci](#): > > Beliefs have a margin of error, or range of probability, and you can choose where within that margin you want to plant your flag. I think this latter view is correct. I don’t know if the word “belief” is really properly defined for this. I believe some things of which I am not certain. (In fact, I’m absolutely certain of…well…damn near nothing! There’s always that last tiny shred of doubt.) I think there can be intermediate states, wherein we have more reason to believe than to doubt, or where we believe, but only for emotional reasons, or where we’ve seen really good arguments on both sides, but, at the moment, one side still appeals a bit more than the other. I can easily see someone slowly sliding from one pole to the other. > [@](#): > > There’s also the matter of choosing to believe very likely but nonetheless highly abstract information that is rational and perhaps obliquely confirmed but has no concrete manifestation in everyday life. A lot of modern science is in this realm, for many of us. There is a kind of spectrum. For instance, I’ve done the usual simple science stuff myself, and have a pretty good idea about it. College chemistry, college physics, etc. But then you get into the big, expensive physics done at CERN, and, well, I’m pretty much stuck taking it on faith. I certainly can’t reproduce their results! But even so, my faith is based on a series of intermediate steps, such as my knowledge of human nature. If CERN were just making stuff up, someone would eventually spill the beans. You wouldn’t have good science writers like Neil DeGrasse Tyson explaining the results; instead, he’d be debunking them. (This is where Creationism fails so spectacularly: they don’t have big institutions of learning backing them up. They don’t have the full chain of the establishment. They have only lone voices crying in the wilderness; they aren’t able to cite anyone in support except others of their own kind. Real physics discoveries get grudging acceptance even from the physicists who supported alternative hypotheses. Even the people who doubt that the Higgs Boson has really been discovered have no disagreement with the fact that particles in the predicted energy range have been discovered. You don’t have an “atoms aren’t really divisible” counter-claim out there saying “CERN isn’t really splitting atoms.” Creationism is pretty much that stupid.) ---
**Author:** ![rstrats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@rstrats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rstrats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/46 "2012-12-10T13:48:01Z")
Lamia, re: “You have now added in ‘[or have no belief either way]’” Yes, because I inadvertently left that option out of the original comment - the brackets indicate that. re: “… as if that’s equivalent to being convinced that something is not true…” Not so. I don’t know how you arrive at that. re: “There’s also no reason why one must go instantly from total disbelief, or even lack of any belief, to being totally convinced that something is true.” The reason is because you can’t believe - be convinced - that something isn’t true AND at the same time bellieve - be convinced - that the same something IS true. re: "There’s a whole spectrum of uncertainty where one might think “I’m not sure what’s true…” And during that time of uncertainty, you’re not convinced - do not have a conviction - with regard to the truth of an issue. re: “I replied to post #32 with post #36.” I don’t see where you were responsive to my question in my post #32. I asked if you could give an example where someone believes - is convinced - that something exists AND at the same time doesn’t believe - is not convinced - that the same something does exist? Where did you give that example in your post #36? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/47 "2012-12-10T13:55:39Z")
**rstrats** ,your posts are very hard to read because it isn’t easy to see who you are replying to. There is a blue “quote” button in the lower right hand corner of this box. Click on it, and my words will appear with my username. Your cursor will be blinking below my words, and your reply will be easy to read and understand. If you want to reply to more than one poster, find the button that is a pair of quotation marks. Click it under each post you wish to include, and it serves as a copy and paste function, collecting each post you select. If you want to try it out, you can select “preview post” and review before you post anything. ---
**Author:** ![rstrats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@rstrats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rstrats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/48 "2012-12-10T14:03:46Z")
Measure for Measure, re: “…of course you can choose a belief…” And that is what I would like to see someone demonstrate. With regard to leprechauns there are three options: (1) believe that leprechauns exist; (2) believe that leprechauns don’t exist; and (3) have no belief one way or the other. I am simply asking that option #1 be selected. And remember that for something to be considered a choice there has to be at least 2 options to choose from AND each option has to be able to be selected. ---
**Author:** ![rstrats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@rstrats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rstrats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/49 "2012-12-10T14:20:36Z")
Troppus, re: “rstrats, your posts are very hard to read because it isn’t easy to see who you are replying to.” Here’s the code: The first line of my post contains the name of the person to whom my post is directed. The second line of my post - if it starts with (re:) - will be quoting a comment from that person. The next line after the quote will be my response to the quote. If I am addressing more than one comment by that person, each comment will have quote marks and be preceded with (re:). ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/50 "2012-12-10T14:30:52Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > Troppus, > > re: “rstrats, your posts are very hard to read because it isn’t easy to see who you are replying to.” > > Here’s the code: The first line of my post contains the name of the person to whom my post is directed. The second line of my post - if it starts with (re:) - will be quoting a comment from that person. The next line after the quote will be my response to the quote. If I am addressing more than one comment by that person, each comment will have quote marks and be preceded with (re:). Oh, so you’re just a rebel. That makes you very unique and intriguing, can’t wait to read your next big idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/51 "2012-12-10T14:59:51Z")
Yes, I can think of at least two senses in which you can choose what to believe: Self-delusion. If you want something to be true badly enough, you can believe it. Clearly a lot of the religious fit into this category. Perhaps the majority. Ac-cent-uate the positive. If you focus on positive statements about something, you’ll see it in a more positive light. And vice versa. This is a human cognitive bias and in its extreme you can go from thinking, say, an economic policy was bad to thinking it’s good even while not actually hearing any new information. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/52 "2012-12-10T16:10:55Z")
Belief in a loving God is very easy. If such a loving God exists and wants you to have belief in Him all you would need to do is ask for that belief and such a God would give you that belief. So that choice is the choice you have in asking or not. As for leprechauns, yes I do believe the do exist in a spiritual realm which we are also apart of and I have felt like I met one who in our physical world appeared very much like a elderly Irish gentleman that I offered a lift to. While driving him to his home town I got the distinct feeling that he was a leprechaun and was very appreciative that I give him a ride, and later that day I found a wedding ring that was lost on a mountain about 10 years earlier. So it was not choosing to believe, it was knowing that there was a leprechaun there that just came though this gentleman. Peace ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/53 "2012-12-10T16:15:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Belief in a loving God is very easy. If such a loving God exists and wants you to have belief in Him all you would need to do is ask for that belief and such a God would give you that belief. So that choice is the choice you have in asking or not. How do you go about asking a favor of a being _you don’t already believe in?_ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/54 "2012-12-10T17:19:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do you go about asking a favor of a being _you don’t already believe in?_ I guess that would be the ‘leap of faith’ thing. You resolve to take a risk and do something that appears foolish and pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/55 "2012-12-10T17:24:45Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I guess that would be the ‘leap of faith’ thing. You resolve to take a risk and do something that appears foolish and pointless. And how do you go about deciding which “god” to talk to in the first place? Am I supposed to pick one and keep asking until I hear voices in my head, or do I flit from god to god to god to god to god until I hear voices in my head? I know that for the longest time I got substantial results from talking to Santa Claus(and he even wrote back a couple of times), so would it make sense to worship him? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/56 "2012-12-10T17:49:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do you go about asking a favor of a being _you don’t already believe in?_ Are you able to send a letter for what you want for Christmas to Santa and address it to Santa, North Pole, place a stamp on it and mail it? If you could do this for Santa you could do the same to God, though perhaps addressing it to God, Heaven would be a bit more direct then sending it to Santa’s residence, but either in the end should work. The method is not important, the intent is all that matters, you want to believe and put in a good faith effort to make that request, the rest is entirely up to God - by the very definition of the God you are requesting to believe in. Peace ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/57 "2012-12-10T17:55:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Are you able to send a letter for what you want for Christmas to Santa and address it to Santa, North Pole, place a stamp on it and mail it? > > If you could do this for Santa you could do the same to God, though perhaps addressing it to God, Heaven would be a bit more direct then sending it to Santa’s residence, but either in the end should work. > > The method is not important, the intent is all that matters, you want to believe and put in a good faith effort to make that request, the rest is entirely up to God - by the very definition of the God you are requesting to believe in. The point I’m trying to make is that _I grew up_. I developed the ability to tell fantasy from reality, mythology from history, nonsense from sense. To make such a leap now would entail losing all that I have gained and trading my hard-won common sense for a pig in a poke. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/58 "2012-12-10T18:05:12Z")
> [@rstrats](#): > > Strinka, > > re: “Being able to consciously choose your beliefs wouldn’t imply that youccould change them instantaneously.” > > It has to imply that. You can’t believe - be convinced - that sometheing doesn’t exist or isn’ t true AND at the same time believe that it does exist or that it is true. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other. When people change their mind, it’s doesn’t have to go directly from “X is definitely false” to “X is definitely true”. It can go from “X is definitely false” to “X is probably false” to “X might be true or false” to “X is probably true” to “X is definitely true”. That’s a gradual change in belief. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/59 "2012-12-10T18:15:20Z")
As to the question of whether believing something can be a choice, it partially is and partially isn’t. The property of being a choice isn’t binary. It’s a spectrum. Some things are far on one side, for example posting on a message board. Some things are far on the other side, for example, having a heart attack. But there are things that fall in between. For example, someone who has OCD washing their hands a lot. Is that a choice? Well, partially yes, partially no. We don’t much notice that choice isn’t binary because most of the things we deal with on an everyday basis fall distinctly on one side or the other. But I think belief is one of the things in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482/60 "2012-12-10T18:53:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The point I’m trying to make is that _I grew up_. I developed the ability to tell fantasy from reality, mythology from history, nonsense from sense. To make such a leap now would entail losing all that I have gained and trading my hard-won common sense for a pig in a poke. While you speak in very condescending manner to those who hold belief systems different from you, what you state is basically correct. You must be able to go back to that early time when you learned one way and now start over learning the other way, as a child again, get rid of the concepts you now hold that you refer to as ‘hard won common sense’ and embrace the possibility that you may have been wrong, and perhaps hold you back from greater achievement and fulfillment in life. I believe for many people they need to get to a state of desperation before having to do such a reevaluation or something like a angelic visit that shatters their adult view of the world and they need to reform their view now to include this possibility. So without the willingness to examine their ‘adult’ belief system as perhaps false, or a forced condition that shatters or make them willing to let go it there may not be a way to ask. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/belief-a-choice/643482.md?page=4)