# Believers: How do we know that the Bible is God's word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028 "2010-02-07T14:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/261 "2010-02-21T14:51:29Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I do enjoy reading books on faith but there are other books I read just because I enjoy them. I did mention some of my fav books but there are many books I like to read. I enjoy history and mystery novels. I have even read part of the Book of Mormon because they left me one. There are many inspiring writers and people in the world. Inspiring writers or _inspired_ writers? Inspired by God? One of the interesting concepts concerning the Book of Mormon and their Doctrine and Covenants is the idea that God will continue to communicate with mankind throughout the ages if we seek to understand. Is James 1:5 a true principle or not? > [@](#): > > I have visited different churches of friends. Just as The Bible is divinely inspired by God so can anyones version of the same Bible be divinely inspired by their God. It is an individual thing. I know my God is right for me and it may be different for someone else. I am not God. This is correct but incomplete. Would God communicate with other people in other cultures who sought that communication? Would those people write down their experience and hold those writings as sacred? It is an individual thing and it happens within. It is not dependent on any book regardless of how we revere it. If the truth will set us free and we are to worship in love and \*truth \* then we must diligently seek the truth. That means the truth about the Bible as well, where it came from, what it is and what it isn’t and what that all means. I repeat, there is nothing in Christian scripture to indicate it was ever God’s plan and intention that we have one final authoritative collection of writings. That is a tradition started by men long after Jesus walked among us. > [@](#): > > I am a seeker and you are too. I think you are looking for a way in, not away out. I was born with a curious mind and I am always looking into something or investigating things that interest me. I am not a lamb that just blindly follows others and their opinion. I learn a lot by seeking the truth. Sometimes I am wrong but I keep on searching. I always question authority and when things don’t add up I dig deeper. That is good to read. May I suggest the book Misquoting Jesus by biblical scholar Bart Ehrman. It’s a great book about the scriptures put in layman’s terms. > [@](#): > > Crack a bible once in a while and then you might not have so much contempt prior to investigation. You may even come to see all life’s answers are there. if you don’t find them there keep searching. > > Pax~ I don’t know the extent of your own biblical knowledge but it’s a big mistake to assume others have not investigated properly. I assure you, there are some very knowledgeable atheists and agnostics on this board. I was a Christian years ago and my own questions and studies led me to rejecting what I saw as man’s traditions that make up so much of any organized religion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/262 "2010-02-21T14:53:34Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Honesty is one of my favorite qualities. > > Maybe it’s because I just skimmed the thread… I can’t keep up with the discussions here. I try to get in early, (sometimes if I get in late, it leads to me to try to act like a rodeo clown, and defusing heated debates). > > There have been so many religious threads in GD that I’ve skimmed lately, and maybe I should take a break. > > I was just trying to say not to worry about being ‘perfect’ in God’s eyes, because it’s hard to pin down, (to me – whether it’s his word or not), what is expected of us. > > Sorry to derail the discussion. well thanks but I’m not sure what you were reading. I don’t see how this relates to anything I’ve posted. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/263 "2010-02-21T15:53:43Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Certainly I am not being shouted down. I refuse to be. That sounds very noble. The problem is the struggle is only in your mind. Nobody is even trying to shout you down. We’re trying to engage you in a discussion that contains some factual information. Have any? > [@](#): > > But I maintain your out-of-hand rejection of arguments based on religious belief and thinking is an attempt to shut down debate. The rejection isn’t based on religious belief. It’s based on you making factually incorrect statements about the history of civil rights and then failing to back them up when called on your mistakes. Religious beliefs that are non fact related such as belief in God, or belief that homosexuality is a sin, can be discussed but in the end it all boils down to personal opinion. Allowing people to suppress the rights of others based on their religious beliefs is a very dangerous precedent to set and violates the founding principles of our country. Our own short history demonstrates that very clearly. > [@](#): > > My only contention is that I am a theist. I further state that science has not convinced me of its position. If I had facts to prove my belief, it would not be a matter of faith. When theists vote about the rights of others based on those beliefs it becomes more than a matter of faith and they can expect to be challenged to defend and examine their beliefs. > [@](#): > > As I mentioned several pages ago, there is no scientific proof that the bible is the word of God. Faith exists without proof, by definition. There are lots and lots of factual details about the writings in the Bible and the history of where it came from that are very relevant. Ignoring or denying those in order to preserve a religious tradition is a poor service to the truth , if that’s what we value. > [@](#): > > How we got to arguing when we seem to hold the same point of view is beyond me. Perhaps you need to keep better track of your conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/264 "2010-02-21T17:41:50Z")
While I appreciate a good ol’ fashioned ad hominem with best of 'em, I will having late night for the next couple of days. I am grading essays. Please feel free to talk amongst yourselves. If this is still going on come Tuesday or so, I will be back. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/265 "2010-02-21T19:41:36Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So you are telling me not to say what I think to be true? But somehow that is not an attempt to limit the discussion? How interesting. I don’t see anyone trying to limit the discussion, but I do think the religious need to be able to back up their statements when it comes to legal or scientific claims. For example, when the Pope says that couples should not have sex before marriage and then only with each other after, that is fine since it is a matter of faith or belief. When he then lies and says that condom use is more dangerous than not using them and actively campaigns against them in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, then that has no place in the debate and he deserves to be called on it. > **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/266 "2010-02-22T00:43:23Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I don’t see anyone trying to limit the discussion, but I do think the religious need to be able to back up their statements when it comes to legal or scientific claims. > > For example, when the Pope says that couples should not have sex before marriage and then only with each other after, that is fine since it is a matter of faith or belief. > > When he then lies and says that condom use is more dangerous than not using them and actively campaigns against them in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, then that has no place in the debate and he deserves to be called on it. > > [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5923927.ece](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5923927.ece) If the Pope is wrong about his statistics he should correct his information about condoms. I’ll forward this to the Vatican. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/267 "2010-02-22T03:00:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s not the same. All evidence supports the atheistic position; no evidence supports the religious position. In fact, the evidence actively opposes the physics-breaking claims normally made about gods. Which evidence are you speaking of? While I agree that no evidence supports the existence of a god I’m not aware of any that rules it out either. In fact I think that to believe that the big bang happened for no reason, out of nothing is just as ludicrous as believing that the universe was created by a god who has always existed for no reason. Also _ **if** _ a universe creating god did exist then obviously he would be above the laws of physics he created. As for the OP, the bible seems to be so inconsistent and so riddled with contradictions that if it was written by God then he must be suffering from Alzheimer’s disease. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/268 "2010-02-22T03:18:45Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > While I agree that no evidence supports the existence of a god I’m not aware of any that rules it out either. The laws of physics rule out the abilities typically claimed of gods. Of course, believers like to claim he is “beyond” those laws; but that’s just an acknowledgement that the evidence is against gods existing at all. There’s also the fact that given the many contradictory claims about gods, almost all have to be wrong. And the most popular versions of God ( since this is a Bible focused thread ) are outright logically impossible. > [@Imasquare](#): > > In fact I think that to believe that the big bang happened for no reason, out of nothing is just as ludicrous as believing that the universe was created by a god who has always existed for no reason. Well, you are wrong. A complex entity like a god is a much more extreme claim than something as simple as the Big Bang. And the Big Bang doesn’t violate the laws of physics. Also, consider the source. God is a religious claim, while the Big Bang is a scientific one; and religion simply has a far, far, far, far worse record of being right about anything than science. > [@Imasquare](#): > > Also _ **if** _ a universe creating god did exist then obviously he would be above the laws of physics he created. It’s not obvious at all. Without laws, how does it keep from simply disintegrating, changing into something else? Before something as complex as a thinking creature can exist, some sort of laws to provide stability need to exist. Nor is such a creature remotely likely to be male. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/269 "2010-02-22T04:09:53Z")
God has done so many wonderful things. He has helped people pass tests, cured cancer in others, helped many thru difficult surgeries or periods of stress. He’s even gotten people jobs and helped the Saints win the Super Bowl. But never ONCE has that bastard healed an amputee. Jesus hasn’t done it, nor has God, Allah, Budda, or Zeus…do the Gods not _believe_ in amputees? I wonder why they ignore them. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/270 "2010-02-22T04:39:12Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > While I appreciate a good ol’ fashioned ad hominem with best of 'em, I will having late night for the next couple of days. I am grading essays. Please feel free to talk amongst yourselves. If this is still going on come Tuesday or so, I will be back. Perhaps when you come back you could be specific about what you think is an ad hominem. I must have missed it ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/271 "2010-02-22T04:41:14Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > If the Pope is wrong about his statistics he should correct his information about condoms. > > I’ll forward this to the Vatican. are you going to respond to my post to you and the questions I asked in #261. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/272 "2010-02-22T04:41:32Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > But never ONCE has that bastard healed an amputee. Jesus hasn’t done it, nor has God, Allah, Budda, or Zeus…do the Gods not _believe_ in amputees? I wonder why they ignore them. 😕 Losing a limb is clearly a mark of great sinfulness, otherwise God would heal them. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/273 "2010-02-22T05:12:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, you are wrong. A complex entity like a god is a much more extreme claim than something as simple as the Big Bang. And the Big Bang doesn’t violate the laws of physics. I don’t really understand how it does not violate the laws of physics. Something creating itself out of nothing before the concept of existence even existed does not seem right to me. On the other hand a god who has always existed before the concept of existence even existed seems equally bizarre. I’m not arguing for or against the existence of god. I just simply do not know what the truth of the matter is and I’m highly suspicious of those who say that they do know - on either side of the debate. Here’s an interesting article regarding the Big Bang: [http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my\_weblog/2010/02/what-came-before-the-big-bang-leading-physicists-present-a-radical-theory-weekend-feature.html?youwillgreenlightthis](http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/02/what-came-before-the-big-bang-leading-physicists-present-a-radical-theory-weekend-feature.html?youwillgreenlightthis) If it’s correct it still does not explain how the two branes came into existence in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/274 "2010-02-22T05:29:15Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I don’t really understand how it does not violate the laws of physics. Something creating itself out of nothing before the concept of existence even existed does not seem right to me. That’s not the Big Bang, for one thing. The Big Bang generally involves some preexisting space time, or one or more other universes. It’s more the creation of this universe. > [@Imasquare](#): > > On the other hand a god who has always existed before the concept of existence even existed seems equally bizarre. No; God is a more extreme claim because God is a complex entity - infinitely complex, according to most claims - and therefore far less plausible as a spontaneously appearing thing than something extremely basic like a bit of spacetime. God is as extreme, and therefore as unlikely a claim as you can make. Given the sheer extremism of the claims made about God, just about any other conceivable idea is more plausible than the God most people believe in. The universe being created by the Silver Surfer is more plausible than claims that God did it, because God is a more extreme myth. > [@Imasquare](#): > > I just simply do not know what the truth of the matter is and I’m highly suspicious of those who say that they do know - on either side of the debate. But the scientists AREN’T saying that they know; it’s the believers that do that. The scientists are just presenting their best theories as of this time. I am willing to say that the believers are wrong, both because their ideas are so ridiculous, and because when aren’t they wrong? Betting against religion being right about anything it hasn’t copied from elsewhere is the way to go judging from its history. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/275 "2010-02-22T08:27:54Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I don’t really understand how it does not violate the laws of physics. Something creating itself out of nothing before the concept of existence even existed does not seem right to me. It’s not at all clear that it makes sense to talk about the laws of physics before there was a universe in which they were instantiated. Also, the recently reported Brookhaven experiment shows that the laws change under extreme conditions. In this type of environment, if something doesn’t seem right to you, it very likely is true. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/276 "2010-02-22T16:24:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Then there is Jesus who said “Ye have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I say to return good for evil.” Jesus did not take the Bible literally, not did He believe it in it’s entirely as the example shows. Quite the opposite, Jesus came to set us free from the written code, as He was the only one who could. He showed us the way, setting us free of the curses that we would have incurred from the written code that He knew existed and was enforced. If He didn’t take the Bible at it’s word, He would not have to show us how we could avoid the wrath. He believed the scriptures in their entirety, as it was part of He faith in God. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/277 "2010-02-22T20:30:23Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > I find you rude. Oh, right. I’m sorry. From now on I will tell lies instead of the rude truth. The Bible tells us all we need to know about God. We know what the Bible says is true because God wrote it. It’s a lie that God is not good. Why, God is the greatest! Sure, in the Book of Judges it says that He solved the problem of the Benjaminites facing extinction by having them run a holocaust on an entire population except for the virgin girls, who were carried off to be the wives of the surviving Benjaminite males. And sure, this was a solution to a problem that God Himself caused. But neither this, nor a dozen other atrocities, makes God evil. And sure, anyone on this thread, YES, ANYBODY, 😉 could have come up with a better solution to the problem than God did. But that doesn’t mean God is stupid! Heck, no! Why God has limitless smarts. It says so… in the Bible. And anyway, who are we to question God??? :dubious: He’s OUR judge, not the other way around! There! Wasn’t that a lot more polite? * * * Trans Fat Og (I’ve just had most of my brain removed to please the religious.) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/278 "2010-02-22T21:25:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Quite the opposite, Jesus came to set us free from the written code, as He was the only one who could. He showed us the way, setting us free of the curses that we would have incurred from the written code that He knew existed and was enforced. If He didn’t take the Bible at it’s word, He would not have to show us how we could avoid the wrath. He believed the scriptures in their entirety, as it was part of He faith in God. What I was saying is that Jesus frequently broke the laws set forth in the Bible, that is why the priests of the day were so anxious to get rid of Him. If he had believed the scriptures entirely and followed them there would have been no conflict between Him and the priests. The Bible says “an eye for an eye” but Jesus says to “return good for evil.” That is just one small example. The Bible was written by men, not God. I am aware that many churches teach the Bible is God’s word, but a simple look at the index will show it was written by men. If you wish to know about God, follow the core teachings of Jesus. Love one another. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/279 "2010-02-22T22:10:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What I was saying is that Jesus frequently broke the laws set forth in the Bible, that is why the priests of the day were so anxious to get rid of Him. If he had believed the scriptures entirely and followed them there would have been no conflict between Him and the priests. The Bible says “an eye for an eye” but Jesus says to “return good for evil.” That is just one small example. The Bible was written by men, not God. I am aware that many churches teach the Bible is God’s word, but a simple look at the index will show it was written by men. If you wish to know about God, follow the core teachings of Jesus. Love one another. The priests were pissed because Jesus refrained from hitting back? Wow, and all this time I thought it was the whole heresy thing\*. - This is actually a lie. I actually think it was the whole ‘being a rabblerouser at passover’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/280 "2010-02-22T22:25:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > What I was saying is that Jesus frequently broke the laws set forth in the Bible, that is why the priests of the day were so anxious to get rid of Him. If he had believed the scriptures entirely and followed them there would have been no conflict between Him and the priests. basically I agree, but add Jesus threatened their authority as people don’t need them or any authority except God. Priests and others such as civil authorities use fear and guilt to hold people in place. This is what Jesus came to undo and with the full blessing and protection of God, they could not touch Him. > [@](#): > > The Bible was written by men, not God. I am aware that many churches teach the Bible is God’s word, but a simple look at the index will show it was written by men. If you wish to know about God, follow the core teachings of Jesus. Love one another. I really don’t care what some teaching by men are, the Holy Spirit has made it very clear to me that it was God using men, acting through men, who have given their life to God, that wrote the Bible. So it was God who is the author, and it shows how God wants to act, through us, if-we-just-let-him. This is not any teaching by any man or any church, but what God has shown me directly and He has proven it to me. As for the core teaching of Jesus, He set people free from evil, evil Jesus knew existed in the forms of demons, devils. This evil is real and IMHO is a issue you have refused to address and just focus on some of His teachings. Telling them to Love but not telling them that there is evil that must be dealt with in their life for them to be set free to Love. IMHO you are providing the end point while obscuring the path to get there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028.md?page=15)