# Believers: How do we know that the Bible is God's word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028 "2010-02-07T14:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/321 "2010-02-24T16:12:08Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Wait - \*\*lekatt, \*\* I’m confused. First you said that: > > Now you say: > In other words - it _wasn’t_ Jesus that ‘laid out the new rules’, as you commented earlier. You don’t need Jesus the Christ or Christianity or any other organized religion. The basic concept of ‘be nice to others’ is really all you need, and as you say, is ‘the core of all religions’. > > If that’s what you think - then why insist that Jesus the Christ is the only true following? I didn’t think I said Jesus was teaching new material. I don’t remember insisting that Jesus was the only true way to God through His teachings. I don’t remember saying that religion was needed. Do you have me confused with someone else or did you read those things into my posts? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/322 "2010-02-24T16:14:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite, please? What are these teachings that existed before Jesus that you follow? The teachings I follow existed at the beginning. I can’t show a link to that, but I can show this link which will help some. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/323 "2010-02-24T16:16:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I forgot to ask-Proof of _what_, precisely? From the first paragraph: JERUSALEM — An Israeli archaeologist said Monday that ancient fortifications recently excavated in Jerusalem date back 3,000 years to the time of King Solomon and support the biblical narrative about the era. If the age of the wall is correct, the finding would be an indication that Jerusalem was home to a strong central government that had the resources and manpower needed to build massive fortifications in the 10th century B.C. That’s a key point of dispute among scholars, because it would match the Bible’s account that the Hebrew kings David and Solomon ruled from Jerusalem around that time ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/324 "2010-02-24T17:34:32Z")
Okay, so one academic says that one thing in the Bible is correct. _What does this prove_? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/325 "2010-02-24T17:38:21Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > From the first paragraph: > > JERUSALEM — An Israeli archaeologist said Monday that ancient fortifications recently excavated in Jerusalem date back 3,000 years to the time of King Solomon and support the biblical narrative about the era. > > If the age of the wall is correct, the finding would be an indication that Jerusalem was home to a strong central government that had the resources and manpower needed to build massive fortifications in the 10th century B.C. > > That’s a key point of dispute among scholars, because it would match the Bible’s account that the Hebrew kings David and Solomon ruled from Jerusalem around that time _This_ constitutes “proof” to you? Now that I know how low your bar is set, I won’t bother asking for any more cites. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/326 "2010-02-24T17:40:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so one academic says that one thing in the Bible is correct. _What does this prove_? That dead people liked building walls? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/327 "2010-02-24T17:41:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so one academic says that one thing in the Bible is correct. _What does this prove_? It proves that Eve was made from Adam’s rib and that a billion animals were packed into an ark. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/328 "2010-02-25T03:47:37Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > There are about two million sober alcoholics worldwide. This does not count the millions that have been saved in the last 75 years. AA was conceived in 1939. It is an anonymous organization and non profit so you don’t hear much about it unless you are in it. The internet is full of misinformation about it. It does not work for everyone, you have to want it. I am living proof it saved my life. I would not be typing these words if it were not for God and this wonderful program. > > I can go to a meeting anywhere in the world and in any town on any given day and that is the beauty of the program. Last Saturday there was a memorial service for a woman that died with 37 years of sobriety. You may say so what? She not only stayed sober but was of great service to bringing the message to women behind bars. The program is based on the concepts of Recovery, Unity and Service. It is totally self supporting and does not accept outside contributions. Therefore it is not corrupt. > > At the same time I can tell you that I may need to bury another sponsee. She for whatever reason cannot get the program and is dying of alcoholism. She is a lovely woman with beautiful children and a great family but she may not make it. I pray for her and reach out my hand to any and all women that ask for help. I don’t get any money from it but it helps keep me sober. Being of service to others is part of the program of recovery. > > So you are correct that it does not save everyone and I am correct that it does save many. It is not garbage because it has saved millions of lives. You don’t hear about it because it is anonymous and people get better and start leading productive lives. We don’t have fundraisers or ask for government support. We just pass the message and reach out a hand. > > [Does AA WORK?l](http://marychristineg.blogspot.com/2010/01/does-aa-work.html) I’m sincerely glad that AA and your concept of God has rescued you and so many others from alcoholism. I know faith can be very powerful when people are in crisis and need help and direction. That’s a positive thing. I know there many good people who are believers and sincerely try to follow the teachings of Jesus. None of that really speaks to the facts about the Bible or the truthfulness of many Christian traditions. You can live the principles of life that Jesus taught without accepting Jesus as God or the Bible as the word of God. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/329 "2010-02-25T15:22:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m sincerely glad that AA and your concept of God has rescued you and so many others from alcoholism. I know faith can be very powerful when people are in crisis and need help and direction. That’s a positive thing. I know there many good people who are believers and sincerely try to follow the teachings of Jesus. > None of that really speaks to the facts about the Bible or the truthfulness of many Christian traditions. > > You can live the principles of life that Jesus taught without accepting Jesus as God or the Bible as the word of God. These words of yours were offered to Perciful…who obviously has come back from the precipice of alcoholism. **To Perciful:** Congratulations on throwing off the yoke you had around your neck. You ought be proud of yourself. I think you ought to give yourself a LOT MORE CREDIT for what you did…and give AA and your “faith” a bit less. But if giving others credit rather than keeping it where I think it belongs makes your life work…go with it. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/330 "2010-02-25T16:26:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so one academic says that one thing in the Bible is correct. _What does this prove_? > [@Grumman](#): > > That dead people liked building walls? > [@begbert2](#): > > It proves that Eve was made from Adam’s rib and that a billion animals were packed into an ark. Even better, it proves that [this method](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14&version=KJV) is an effective answer for plagued skin. :dubious: What a bunch of sick [del]shi[/del] –_dung_! _ **- TFO** _ ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/331 "2010-02-25T16:56:51Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > [Does AA WORK?l](http://marychristineg.blogspot.com/2010/01/does-aa-work.html) If it works for you, great, however in the interest of fighting ignorance – which is supposedly why we are here for – fact is there’s _NO scientific evidence_ that AA “works” as a system. In short, it’s a faith-based initiative, and one with a very poor record at that. Cite: [**AA is Faith-Based, Not Evidence-Based**](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=490) > [@](#): > > \*\*…We hear about a few success stories, but not about the many failures. AA’s own statistics show that after 6 months, 93% of new attendees have left the program. The research on AA is handily summarized in a Wikipedia article. A recent Cochrane systematic review found no evidence that AA or other 12 step programs are effective. > > In The Skeptic’s Dictionary, Bob Carroll comments: > > > [@](#): > > > > _Neither A.A. nor many other SATs [Substance Abuse Treatments] are based on science, nor do they seem interested in doing any scientific studies which might test whether the treatment they give is effective._ > > In the current issue of Free Inquiry, Steven Mohr has written a thorough and incisive article “Exposing the Myth of Alcoholics Anonymous.” > > Mohr characterizes AA as a religious cult\*. The founder, Bill Wilson, had a religious experience while under the influence of strong psychotropic drugs. > > > [@](#): > > > > _He had a vision of a bright light and the revelation that he could be saved only by giving his life completely and fully to God – and that an important part of his recovery would be to bring the news of his epiphany and recovery to other suffering alcoholics._ > > \*\* – highlights mine. More at source including pertinent links. So, sorry to burst your bubble; sincerely hope it keeps “working” for you and others like you. Just don’t sell it as anything remotely evidence-based, because again, as you can clearly read, it has a piss-poor record in the Real World®. \*As do I. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/332 "2010-02-25T18:48:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m sincerely glad that AA and your concept of God has rescued you and so many others from alcoholism. I know faith can be very powerful when people are in crisis and need help and direction. That’s a positive thing. I know there many good people who are believers and sincerely try to follow the teachings of Jesus. > None of that really speaks to the facts about the Bible or the truthfulness of many Christian traditions. > > You can live the principles of life that Jesus taught without accepting Jesus as God or the Bible as the word of God. Yes, That is true. It seems that the key to AA is by relying on a higher power greater than yourself. Also when people are alcoholic they may go from being good people that live good lives to a life they feel shameful about. Loss of moral and spiritual values, etc. AA gives them hope and faith which is something you need to break free of the obsession to drink. AA never tells anyone what their God/ Higher Power, should be. That is for the alcoholic to figure out. In early sobriety they say you can have a light bulb as your higher power or a tree or use the group. AA and the 12 Steps are not of any religious affiliation. They are based on things from the bible but you would only know that if you were familiar with it. Some people feel Bill Wilson, a co founder was a closet Buddhist so that may also have influenced the book? AA decided to keep the spiritual part of the program non denominational so it was open to everyone. AA does use some of the bible’s principles but not all and does not mention the bible at all. I don’t know how it works or why it works but I am very grateful it does. ---
**Author:** ![swiminakilt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@swiminakilt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swiminakilt)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/333 "2010-02-26T04:17:21Z")
I have a thought on this as I am always on the fence related to these issues. A strong Christian kept pushing the book of John on me because it had all of the answers. When he asked me which book I read, I said Numbers. When he asked why I said, "Because that is the proof. It shows the lineage. It shows who was around and when. Who was related and how they were related. Without it, the Bible could easily be a work of fiction; but with it you have documentation that at the very least, the book was written in the correct time period and was based on real people. I hope that this helps you on your spiritual journey! I have no clue where mine is headed! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/334 "2010-02-26T12:55:32Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Yes, That is true. It seems that the key to AA is by relying on a higher power greater than yourself. Also when people are alcoholic they may go from being good people that live good lives to a life they feel shameful about. Loss of moral and spiritual values, etc. AA gives them hope and faith which is something you need to break free of the obsession to drink. > > AA never tells anyone what their God/ Higher Power, should be. That is for the alcoholic to figure out. In early sobriety they say you can have a light bulb as your higher power or a tree or use the group. AA and the 12 Steps are not of any religious affiliation. They are based on things from the bible but you would only know that if you were familiar with it. Some people feel Bill Wilson, a co founder was a closet Buddhist so that may also have influenced the book? AA decided to keep the spiritual part of the program non denominational so it was open to everyone. > > AA does use some of the bible’s principles but not all and does not mention the bible at all. I don’t know how it works or why it works but I am very grateful it does. That’s fine but not the point of the discussion. You were using it as some reference about the Bible as divine. The fact that many people in AA believe and use that belief to turn their lives around says nothing about the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/335 "2010-02-26T14:15:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > That’s fine but not the point of the discussion. You were using it as some reference about the Bible as divine. The fact that many people in AA believe and use that belief to turn their lives around says nothing about the Bible. In fact, it proves the opposite of the original claim, since it seems to make no difference to AA whether or not you’re a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/336 "2010-03-05T04:03:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In fact, it proves the opposite of the original claim, since it seems to make no difference to AA whether or not you’re a Christian. AA would not have been created without the bible. If you read the Big Book you would know that much of it is taken from the bible. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/337 "2010-03-05T05:09:15Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > AA would not have been created without the bible. If you read the Big Book you would know that much of it is taken from the bible. and one more time, this says nothing about the Bible being God’s word. You know, the subject of the OP. Can you provide a link to what parts of the Big Book you say are taken from the Bible? Is it specific scripture or just principles? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/338 "2010-03-05T10:02:47Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I guess non believers can chime in and take their shots here if they want, but my question is directed at believers. I’m a Christian who, admittedly has struggled with my faith from time to time. I believe in Jesus and God, but when I question things, the pastor usually retorts with a Bible verse. > > How do we know that God inspired the words? How do we know that it wasn’t some crazy guy smoking opium in a cave somewhere? Maybe God wants us to do the exact opposite of what is said in these books? > > So, why do we give credence that what is written in the Bible (all books) are the divine word of God? And as a secondary subject, why are those other books (e.g. The Gospel of Peter) dismissed with scorn? I think your answer depends very very largely on how you view the prophets. Personally (bearing in mind I am a PR spinmeister) I think that a lot of the stuff is just ways to get people to do things, and is couched in language in a way to make it attractive to them. In particular, two items of “law” that bug me are circumcision and kosher / halal food. I strongly suspect that these arose out of very “mortal” wishes, but were couched as strictures of the religion to get people to go along. eg: Perhaps, for whatever reason somebody thought pork was dangerous to eat, rather than try to explain to people why it is dangerous, i smuch easier to get their buy-in with a “this is what god wants”. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/339 "2010-03-05T14:25:36Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > In particular, two items of “law” that bug me are circumcision and kosher / halal food. > > I strongly suspect that these arose out of very “mortal” wishes, but were couched as strictures of the religion to get people to go along. > > eg: Perhaps, for whatever reason somebody thought pork was dangerous to eat, rather than try to explain to people why it is dangerous, i smuch easier to get their buy-in with a “this is what god wants”. Perhaps that is why Paul wanted to be rid of them almost immediately. I cover this at length[in my thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=553639) about the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/340 "2010-03-06T03:11:03Z")
cosmosdan;12189816]and one more time, this says nothing about the Bible being God’s word. You know, the subject of the OP. Can you provide a link to what parts of the Big Book you say are taken from the Bible? Is it specific scripture or just principles? [/QUOTE] Well the twelve steps are taken from all different parts of the bible. The seven major roots of AA ideas related the the bible- King James Version. The Sermon On The Mount. Matt:5-7 Corinthians 13 The Book of James [http://www.dickb.com/JamesClub.shtml](http://www.dickb.com/JamesClub.shtml) [http://www.recoveredalcoholics.net/pdf\_articles/shoemake.pdf](http://www.recoveredalcoholics.net/pdf_articles/shoemake.pdf) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028.md?page=18)