# Believers: How do we know that the Bible is God's word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028 "2010-02-07T14:40:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/141 "2010-02-14T02:49:05Z")
Nope. Science pushes forward, we learn more and we are more aware of the stuff we do not (yet) know scientifically, and we become more aware and more in awe of our breathtaking scientific ignorance. Certainly there are lots of religious fools who choose to argue and to deny science its own domain. However on the other hand, there are lots of fans of science who attack religion needlessly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/142 "2010-02-14T03:09:50Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Nope. Science pushes forward, we learn more and we are more aware of the stuff we do not (yet) know scientifically, and we become more aware and more in awe of our breathtaking scientific ignorance. > > Certainly there are lots of religious fools who choose to argue and to deny science its own domain. However on the other hand, there are lots of fans of science who attack religion needlessly. Wrong again. Science is, always has been, and always will be the enemy of religion. Regardless of the intentions of the ( competent ) scientists in question; by doing their job properly, they are fighting against religion whether they know or care about it. And the acknowledgement of science as to its ignorance is a part of that; religion does the opposite and makes assertions about things it has no means of acquiring knowledge of. Every time some scientist says “We don’t know X; let’s find out”, they are acting in opposition to the essence of religion. Every time some scientist checks his facts or checks his logic, he is acting against religion. Every time a scientist admits his theory is wrong instead of lying about it, he is striking a blow at the patterns of thought that make religion possible. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/143 "2010-02-14T09:01:49Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I hope I have not offered any defense. I am simply explaining reality to you. Most people are Deists of one flavor or another. Arguing people out of a position they were not argued into is a foolish waste of time. Not true under any definition of Deism I’m aware of. Most people (alas) think that god has in some way inspired a moral code. True Deism I have no problem with. A true Deist is not going to go to church - why pray to a god who will never be involved, and true Deists won’t interfere with the rights of another for religious reasons. The majority is composed of theists, many of whom do all these things. > [@](#): > > If a loved one wanted to spend all their money foolishly, I would have enough sense to realize free people are allowed to do foolish things. That is what freedom means. You wouldn’t bother informing her that the astrologer who claims it is an accepted science is lying? _tsk_ > [@](#): > > Actually, no you are wrong. > > The areas where science and religion clash are way off in the corner of human affairs. Does it matter if I believe the universe sits atop a pile of turtles all the way down? Does it matter if you think light is a wave except when it is a particle? This is pretty darn esoteric stuff here. As a practical matter it hardly matters at all. > > It is certainly not worth your getting upset about. It is if you feel you may need the benefits of stem cells, which were not being federally funded due to religious reasons. It is not if your child is going to be taught myths instead of science. It is not if fools who were never taught evolution in any meaningful way run around with super germ killers which just create super germs. Religion doesn’t have to oppose science - there are plenty of good Catholic evolutionary biologists and the Dalai Lama is pretty cool - but some forms of religion are dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/144 "2010-02-14T13:09:28Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Well you two have me in the jaws of your logic like a terrier with snaucage. I can only pray (I can still do that, right?) you do not clamp down further. > > In any case, I have replied to the OP. There is no proof of the sacredness of the Bible. (Why are you arguing with that?) And yet, I still believe. > > I certainly never said my position was rational. I simply said it was mine. Why wouldn’t it be _rational_? ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/145 "2010-02-14T14:41:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We also expect those who believe in ESP, space aliens, astrology and other such nonsense to provide scientific evidence. Do you think they don’t have to do this either? Why should religion get a pass? In the United States this pass comes in the form of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Of course it also gives everyone the rights to express their skepticism and challenge theological claims. > [@Voyager](#): > > It is if you feel you may need the benefits of stem cells, which were not being federally funded due to religious reasons. The stem cell argument is a moral one regarding the value of life upon conception, not some scientifically provable theological claim. There is significant secular argument against against fetal stem cell research. > [@Voyager](#): > > It is not if your child is going to be taught myths instead of science. Religious claims should not be part of public education, IMO. > [@Voyager](#): > > It is not if fools who were never taught evolution in any meaningful way run around with super germ killers which just create super germs. Super germ creation (in a lab) is an excellent example of where science should be influenced by morality, albeit not necessarily religious. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/146 "2010-02-14T18:29:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How about gods? If there are gods, they either have interacted with us or not. If they haven’t, only a blockhead would alter his life as if they had. If they had, there should be evidence of this interaction (unlike the aliens, for whom we don’t expect evidence.) The lack of this evidence shows either that the gods don’t exist or act as if they don’t exist from our perspective. For many definitions of god, one who loves his creation, we’d think that god would want to interact with us. The lack of this is more evidence against the existence of gods. Maybe there is a god for someone else, but he isn’t our god. I don’t want to further hijack this thread but concerning this I’ll note that it seems no God, or gods, have interacted with us in a way in which we can measure and establish objectively right? All the things science has revealed so far were around even when mankind didn’t know about them or comprehend right? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/147 "2010-02-14T19:04:02Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I guess non believers can chime in and take their shots here if they want, but my question is directed at believers. I’m a Christian who, admittedly has struggled with my faith from time to time. I believe in Jesus and God, but when I question things, the pastor usually retorts with a Bible verse. > > How do we know that God inspired the words? How do we know that it wasn’t some crazy guy smoking opium in a cave somewhere? Maybe God wants us to do the exact opposite of what is said in these books? > > So, why do we give credence that what is written in the Bible (all books) are the divine word of God? And as a secondary subject, why are those other books (e.g. The Gospel of Peter) dismissed with scorn? Back to the OP, Personally I think the giving any written word too much credence as “inspired by God” and giving it and anyone’s interpretation too much authority over us is a big mistake. As a former Christian my beliefs went through a series of changes when I started asking questions and then doing the research to answer them. I began to see a reoccurring pattern in world religions and saw how much they were about tradition rather than truth. The evidence , and there’s a lot of it, indicates that the Bible is a collection of writings written by, selected and interpreted by men. Whatever value and guidance they may have spring from the heart and spirit of the reader just as it does from any other so called “holy writings” Beliefs about the Bible’s “authority” are IMHO, tradition, fueled by some personalities need to have an authoritative answer and create one even if it doesn’t exist. It amuses me to note that in a religion that speaks so often of authority, and fulfilled prophecies, there is nothing in any of the canon to indicate that it was ever God’s intention that we have one final authoritative compilation of inspired writings. Doesn’t it make more sense that if there is a God, a something more that we and all of creation are connected to, that communion would continue throughout the ages as we continued our search for truth and meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/148 "2010-02-15T05:12:17Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > In the United States this pass comes in the form of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Of course it also gives everyone the rights to express their skepticism and challenge theological claims. Where did I say I wanted to censor religious expression? In the old days (and plenty of places today) expressing atheist ideas will get you in big trouble. Including things like blasphemy laws. Today you just get called an evangelical atheist. > [@](#): > > The stem cell argument is a moral one regarding the value of life upon conception, not some scientifically provable theological claim. There is significant secular argument against against fetal stem cell research. Such as? I’ll remind you that the cells to be used came from fetuses which would be discarded, and with the permission of the parents. I fail to see the moral problem. Which method works best has no relevance, since we don’t know. > [@](#): > > Super germ creation (in a lab) is an excellent example of where science should be influenced by morality, albeit not necessarily religious. I lived in Cambridge during the recombinant DNA debate of the early '70s, and there was plenty of robust debate on the subject, fortunately none religious. But I was referring to supergerms created in the field by all those killing off weak germs which won’t hurt anyone and thus encouraging the evolution of supergerms. That is a far greater danger. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/149 "2010-02-15T05:13:34Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t want to further hijack this thread but concerning this I’ll note that it seems no God, or gods, have interacted with us in a way in which we can measure and establish objectively right? All the things science has revealed so far were around even when mankind didn’t know about them or comprehend right? No argument. You have a rational view of this subject, and I’m not about to object to it. ---
**Author:** ![Oveja\_Slayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/47e85d/32.png) [@Oveja\_Slayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oveja_Slayer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/150 "2010-02-15T05:32:55Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Back to the OP, > > Personally I think the giving any written word too much credence as “inspired by God” and giving it and anyone’s interpretation too much authority over us is a big mistake. As a former Christian my beliefs went through a series of changes when I started asking questions and then doing the research to answer them. > I began to see a reoccurring pattern in world religions and saw how much they were about tradition rather than truth. > The evidence , and there’s a lot of it, indicates that the Bible is a collection of writings written by, selected and interpreted by men. Whatever value and guidance they may have spring from the heart and spirit of the reader just as it does from any other so called “holy writings” > > Beliefs about the Bible’s “authority” are IMHO, tradition, fueled by some personalities need to have an authoritative answer and create one even if it doesn’t exist. > > It amuses me to note that in a religion that speaks so often of authority, and fulfilled prophecies, there is nothing in any of the canon to indicate that it was ever God’s intention that we have one final authoritative compilation of inspired writings. > Doesn’t it make more sense that if there is a God, a something more that we and all of creation are connected to, that communion would continue throughout the ages as we continued our search for truth and meaning? Wow, took the words right out of my mouth. I think you and I are on the same page on a lot of things. Great to meet a fellow seeker! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/151 "2010-02-15T12:20:28Z")
> [@Oveja\_Slayer](#): > > Wow, took the words right out of my mouth. > > I think you and I are on the same page on a lot of things. > > Great to meet a fellow seeker! Greetings fellow seeker In my studies I noticed the common themes of brotherhood and the we are one concepts that are in a lot of religions. Those concepts seem to still ring true and science has done nothing to dispel them. It also seemed that as teachers came forward others tended to deify them and they became cloaked in a certain mythology. There’s a certain power to belonging to a group with a belief system that makes it difficult to let go of some of the myths and religious tradition gets it’s hold in our psyche as something more important than it actually is. Fortunately there are always those who place truth above tradition and gradually we {individuals and mankind in general} progress. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/152 "2010-02-15T15:36:22Z")
Hummm. So countries and cultures that reject religion and tradition are better places led by better people? You would have a bit of a hard time proving that by the evidence of the last century. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/153 "2010-02-15T15:43:16Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Hummm. So countries and cultures that reject religion and tradition are better places led by better people? You would have a bit of a hard time proving that by the evidence of the last century. Works both ways, though. Are countries that embrace a certain religion better places than countries that hold it at arm’s length? ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/154 "2010-02-15T17:23:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Such as? I’ll remind you that the cells to be used came from fetuses which would be discarded, and with the permission of the parents. I fail to see the moral problem. Which method works best has no relevance, since we don’t know. This is a good article on the subject - [http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/obamastemcells2/](http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/obamastemcells2/) It’s a hijack so I don’t really want to argue one side or the other, but I think it’s a valid ethical consideration apart from any theology. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/155 "2010-02-15T19:02:27Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Hummm. So countries and cultures that reject religion and tradition are better places led by better people? You would have a bit of a hard time proving that by the evidence of the last century. Not that hard; [Societies worse off ‘when they have God on their side’](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece). Religion corrupts. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > In my studies I noticed the common themes of brotherhood and the we are one concepts that are in a lot of religions. Those concepts seem to still ring true and science has done nothing to dispel them. Because that’s a propaganda ploy, a bit of psychological manipulation; not a factual statement that science can disprove. I doubt that many if any religious people mean that literally after all; so it’s not like a scientist could impress anyone by, say, running a DNA comparison to prove that people really aren’t brothers and say “See! You AREN’T really brothers!” The point of a claim like “we are all brothers” is ( fairly obviously ) to hijack the normal human family instinct to strengthen group loyalty. This can be well meaning ( “We are all brothers, so stop killing each other” ), or not well meaning ( “We are brothers! They aren’t your brothers! Kill them!” ); but it’s not meant as a factual claim, so it’s not something science can disprove. Such manipulative assertions of familiarity aren’t even restricted to theism, Comrade. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/156 "2010-02-15T20:24:04Z")
You know the bible is gods word because about 1500 years ago some religious leader said so. And subsequent leaders have said so. That is all you need. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/157 "2010-02-15T21:32:24Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > This is a good article on the subject - > > [http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/obamastemcells2/](http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/obamastemcells2/) > > It’s a hijack so I don’t really want to argue one side or the other, but I think it’s a valid ethical consideration apart from any theology. I’ll not get into the details of stem cells, but the article seems to be saying that those opposed to that ethical restriction are opposed to all, which is nonsense. On topic, the question is whether the ethical issue is purely religiously based. As a less extreme example, laws forbidding terminally ill patients from asking to end their own lives because certain religions forbid suicide are ethically suspect. of course most opponents will throw up a smokescreen of supposedly good reasons ( the SSM opponents have a million) but we can tell where the opposition really comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/158 "2010-02-16T02:45:08Z")
How? The voices in your head? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/159 "2010-02-16T02:53:19Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How? The voices in your head? By the identity of the people pushing for such laws. By the fact that there’s typically no other reason for it; what is the rational, moral, non-religious reason for opposing same sex marriage or stem cell research? By the fact that they often let slip their actual motives. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028/160 "2010-02-16T06:09:13Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How? The voices in your head? Is quoting against Islamic Law for some reason? I’m not at all sure who you are responding to most of the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-that-the-bible-is-gods-word/528028.md?page=9)