If you were back in the US of A, and a group of Muslims and Orthodox Jews wanted to ban the sale of pork in your city, would you be amenable to that religious reasoning? If they claimed that they were not doing it for religious reasons but instead because of the danger of disease (focusing on a case or two of food poisoning like it was a major problem) would you maybe detect dishonesty?
BTW, stop claiming that we are trying to stifle discussion. That is a misrepresentation of our position, you’ve been told it is several times, and I’m getting tired of your repeated claims about it.
I’d be happier if those influenced by religion would say so up front, and not try to pretend that there are secular reasons for their position. In the SSM trial in San Francisco, none of the Prop. 8 defenders brought up religion as a reason for their position. Instead they used the old tiresome dangerous to marriage and children bit.
Why aren’t they being honest? Is it because they are afraid of being suppressed? Hardly. They know full well that if they claim God wants something they will both have to defend the claim against others in the same religion who disagree, and also prove that God wants anything. They know they can’t do this and they know that laws established for religious reasons (like Blue Laws) are unconstitutional.
It is very much like substituting Intelligent Design for Creationism. A badly supported and clearly false secular justification is given for a religious goal.
So you are telling me not to say what I think to be true? But somehow that is not an attempt to limit the discussion? How interesting.
I do like the what-if about pork being sold in a town. Limiting what people can do (marry who they want, sell pork) is not something to be done lightly. While there are many places pork stores (or SSM) are not welcome, it would be wrong to add the sanction of law to the general approbation of the community.
At this point I would cite the Supreme Court ruling on this point, a case centered in Philadelphia. But I have not yet had my coffee, and you know.
In this forum we are somewhat limited in our speech, by our common agreement. So, please cite explicit examples of where either Der Trihs or I supported limiting anyone’s freedom of expression. We can then correct your evident misunderstanding of our position.
I believe the Bible is inspired by God. It is noted in the bible many times. Too many for me to note them all. It is his book given to us as a gift for our restless search for life’s meaning.
2Timothy 3:10-17
10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
And? Anyone can write a book claiming to be “God’s Word”; quite a few have. What makes you take the Bible more seriously than the books that disagree with it?
You can’t logically use the Bible’s claim to be God inspired to as evidence the Bible is God inspired.
So you can’t recall the actual point of discussion but you’re sure you’re being shouted down? How very,…
I didn’t call you or anyone else with a different opinion ludicrous as an individual. I called a specific contention within the discussion ludicrous.
In this debate forum there are certain traditions and guidelines that IMHO would benefit any serious adult discussion.
You or anyone religious or not, are welcome to express an opinion but others are welcome to challenge your position and ask for evidence to support it. When you fail o provide any and instead continue to whine about being shouted down and/or misrepresent facts when challenged it’s going to be hard for other debaters to take our arguments seriously. Bad, non fact based, arguments do not automatically deserve equal respect.
If you have any facts to defend your contentions then I’m interested is seeing them. If you don’t then stop whining about being shouted down. Nobody is shouting you down. You just haven’t offered a substantial argument up till now. Do you have one?
I’m just going to have to take His word on this one. I don’t read books that disagree with the bible. I read books inspired by the bible like The Life of Christ by Thomas Kempis. Henri Nouwen is a favorite and The Confessions of Augustine, The Story Of A Soul by St Therese of the Child Jesus, etc. I stay fed.
One of the tragedies in life is forgetting who we are. I can waste time and energy to prove what doesn’t need to be proved. I need to discipline myself to not get caught up online or in my day by the voices saying, go here, go there, buy that, don’t miss this. They pull me away from a gentle voice that speaks in the center of me. My one hour a day of prayer keeps me tuned in. Reading spiritual books helps and everything I need to know is in the book.
I know this is not a proper answer. Just believe that I believe. We are both seekers.
But how do you know that it IS his word? You know; the question asked by this thread.
Somehow I’m not surprised. Although since the Bible contains self contradictions and comes in different versions I guess you shouldn’t read it, either.
That’s outright nonsense; it’s a 2000ish year old book of generally rather barbaric myths; if you actually tried to follow your claimed principles you’d probably starve to death or end up in prison. How are you even operating a computer without non-Biblical knowledge?
Do you burn books? You sound like the sort who would, since if they aren’t the Bible they have “useless” and no doubt sinful knowledge. You sound like book burners I’ve run into.
No; you, quite blatantly, aren’t a “seeker”. In fact, you are trying very hard not to seek anything.
Even if we accept the Bible as inspired there are many concepts as to what inspired means and how much of the human authors , their personalities, the culture and tradition of their time, comes through.
I’ll also point out that history shows we no longer have the original texts and there have been many changes as the texts were hand copied over and over again.
It’s also true that nothing in the Bible indicates it was ever part of God’s plan for us to have one final authoritative collection of scripture. That is simply a tradition of men. I’ll assume you know what advice the Bible has about worshiping the traditions of men.
Certainly I am not being shouted down. I refuse to be. But I maintain your out-of-hand rejection of arguments based on religious belief and thinking is an attempt to shut down debate.
My only contention is that I am a theist. I further state that science has not convinced me of its position. If I had facts to prove my belief, it would not be a matter of faith.
As I mentioned several pages ago, there is no scientific proof that the bible is the word of God. Faith exists without proof, by definition.
How we got to arguing when we seem to hold the same point of view is beyond me.
I am a seeker. What do you know about the truth with your closed mind? I am happy with my faith and have friends with other faiths and atheist friends and I’m fine with that too. I am not the arbiter of others beliefs. I also don’t think it’s prudent for you to be putting down God or the bible.
The Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. Prove to me it isn’t.
You are on the wrong boards, then, because here people are expected to back up what they say with facts.
This lower case “bible” that supposedly backs up the Bible interests me. Or was it written by the same murderers, liars, perverts, and mentally confused folks as the Bible?
Quoted by Percival:
>>> 2Timothy 3:10-17
… 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness >OH, SNIP THIS SICK NONSENSE!
Look, at the time this was written, there was only what you call the “Old Testament” and not the Greek Testament.
You want usefulness? Read the story of the king who was so grateful for victory in war that he swore to sacrifice the first thing that came through the gates back to him. His DAUGHTER came through first to his great dismay. And no doubt hers.
Did your “great” Gawwwd release the king from his oath? Was anything later said against even taking such oaths?
Let me save you the trouble of further reading.
Nope.
So the daughter was roasted like any sacrificial animal.
Hey, great sacred text you have there. Great teaching. :rolleyes: Maybe you’d like the combine it with the Quran while you are at it.
Since the biblical god you believe in is such a sick monster, a good start for a more meaningful life for all…
would be to take most of what he supposedly says and does and use it as a negative example.
Just in case dictionaries are among the books you studiously avoid, that means one should prefer the opposite of what he supposedly did and supposedly told people to do. (In many, though not all cases.)
Trans Fat Og
(New name, same old SDMB member with pleasant commentary!)
