# Believers: How do we know which religion is the correct one? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311 "2010-11-29T18:42:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/61 "2010-12-01T05:19:26Z")
I believe what I believe and it will be different to every other person who approachs spirituallity with any semblance of intelligance. Of course the sheep who follow the fundamentals will say that there’s is the only one, I do not I think we are all on our own path. P.S. I am a small “c” christian. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/62 "2010-12-01T06:38:19Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I believe what I believe and it will be different to every other person who approachs spirituallity with any semblance of intelligance That’s an oxymoron. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/63 "2010-12-01T12:23:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > God wants you to put on a sweater, because He is chilly. LOL. But to take it seriously: S/He wants dogs to be warm, so they grow a fur coat. S/He wants squirrels to be warm, so they get very fat in the fall. S/He wants me to be warm, so S/He gave my species the brains to make coats out of recycled soda bottles or take the fur coats of other animals or build a fire. What S/He wants is so broad, it can be achieved many ways. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/64 "2010-12-01T14:23:27Z")
> [@dzero](#): > > No they were the ones deemed to be consistent with the “truth”, ie, the early church father’s view of the truth. Cite, please? > [@](#): > > [As for your dating](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#History) > Also: > I think that would constitute “from the beginning”. So your only evidence for the fact that Gnostic Christianity existed “from the beginning” is the fact that Wikipedia says so? Wikipedia is worse than worthless, and your quote from it is an excellent demonstration of why. The claim that “Gnosticism was considered a real enough threat by the apostles themselves” has two footnotes. Neither footnote says anything about the Apostles themselves. So let me ask you point blank: do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Gnosticism existed “from the beginning” of Christianity? > [@](#): > > The fact that Thomas is so much more primitive than even Mark as it has not even a semblance of a narrative I think guarantees that it is at least older than Mark Could you explain the logic here? Are you saying that because the Gospel of Thomas was more primitive than Mark, it was written before Mark? Many books written in the last few years about Jesus are more primitive than the Gospel of Mark, but that doesn’t mean they were written before Mark. I’ve already linked to the book by Nicholas Perrin showing that the Gospel of Thomas depended on material written about 175 A.D. Therefore, unless you believe in time travel or can give me a reason to not accept Perrin’s analysis, the Gospel of Thomas was written after 175 A.D. > [@](#): > > which IIRC has been dated to possibly as early as the destruction of the temple. As I already said, it doesn’t matter that Thomas “has been dated” to the first century. What matters is the _correct_ dating, which is late second century. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/65 "2010-12-01T14:27:10Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Believers: How do we know which religion is the correct one? Non believer here. Can’t vouch for which religion is correct - God’s seemingly too upitty to chat with li’l old Sabsy :(… despite how many times I take ‘his’ name in vein on and hourly basis! Haven’t even be alien anal probed yet either for that matter…! :mad: But I think the best strategy is to pick the denomination that has the most weapons. The US is still ahead in this department, so Christianity sounds like a safe bet. Any of the evangelical takes should suffice also. China’s bringing up the rear lickety split however, so you might wanna brush up on your Lao Tzu. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/66 "2010-12-01T15:06:55Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > But certain “heresies” clearly DID. Read Luke 1: 1-4. Luke himself admits that there were competing “gospels” out there, at the time he sat down to write. And this was in the very earliest days of the post-Resurrection church: between 50 and 80 AD. Luke 1:1-4 does not say anything of the sort. Here’s what it actually says. “1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.” > [@](#): > > As usual, ITR champion…apologetics FAIL. If you want to assert your intellectual superiority in such childish ways as this, perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight first. Then again, in our last thread, when I asked you for cites to back up _any_ of your claims, you just tossed a few insults at me and turned around and ran, so it seems you’re quite okay with being proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/67 "2010-12-01T15:09:24Z")
Which religion has a central figure that all major religions & many minor religions truly respect? What religion has undergirded a civilization which combines freedom, stability & prosperity for its peoples & is a draw for all other peoples of other nations? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/68 "2010-12-01T15:13:24Z")
In an effort to make reading the Dope easier for my fellow Dopers, allow me to translate FriarTed’s post for simplicity: “Which is the most popular religion in America?” ---
**Author:** ![twistedwords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@twistedwords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twistedwords)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/69 "2010-12-01T15:30:06Z")
[QUOTE= I had been taught that miracles never occurred, and that those who claimed any supernatural experiences or abilities were never willing to submit to outside testing or evaluation. Then I started investigating actual cases and learned that they often are. I was taught that the Gospels had been copied from earlier pagan mythology. QUOTE] Okay, You are either trying to cause a stir here which is what I think you are doing or you never studied anything at all. So please provide your proof that a mythological person by the name of jesus existed, he performed miracles and this suppsed ressurection that was copied by quite a few previous demigods by the likes of Dionysys, Horus and Krishna. Show us proof outside a corupted bok by the name of the bible. The bible is not a historical record of facts by the way. This shouldn’t take you very long to gather your information. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/70 "2010-12-01T15:33:33Z")
I asked God. I was told that all the existing ones are kind of wrong (or at least were heavily cluttered up with overly literal oversimplifications and metaphors that were treated as absolute literal truth). The correct one is, of course, the one I started myself. Although I might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/71 "2010-12-01T15:38:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Luke 1:1-4 does not say anything of the sort. Here’s what it actually says. > > “1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.” > If you want to assert your intellectual superiority in such childish ways as this, perhaps you should consider getting your facts straight first. Then again, in our last thread, when I asked you for cites to back up _any_ of your claims, you just tossed a few insults at me and turned around and ran, so it seems you’re quite okay with being proven wrong. To get back on topic, do you have an answer to the question I asked in post #48? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/72 "2010-12-01T15:49:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Being Jewish, and having had my ancestors tormented for nearly 2,000 years thanks to this little detail, I think your idea of the history or religious thought is a bit fuzzy. I don’t dispute history. That some people used violence over this detail is not at issue. You could say something very similar of the Moslems; ‘convert or die’ is not restricted to Christianity. The Jews were not averse to lethal force either. That doesn’t stop it being a detail. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/73 "2010-12-01T15:58:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you studied other religions with the same intensity and devotion to determine which would be the right road to go down? I second that question. **ITR Champion** , What other religions have you studied, and what did you learn about them that caused you to reject them? ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/74 "2010-12-01T16:30:08Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Cite, please? > So your only evidence for the fact that Gnostic Christianity existed “from the beginning” is the fact that Wikipedia says so? Wikipedia is worse than worthless, and your quote from it is an excellent demonstration of why. The claim that “Gnosticism was considered a real enough threat by the apostles themselves” has two footnotes. Neither footnote says anything about the Apostles themselves. So let me ask you point blank: do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Gnosticism existed “from the beginning” of Christianity? > Could you explain the logic here? Are you saying that because the Gospel of Thomas was more primitive than Mark, it was written before Mark? Many books written in the last few years about Jesus are more primitive than the Gospel of Mark, but that doesn’t mean they were written before Mark. I’ve already linked to the book by Nicholas Perrin showing that the Gospel of Thomas depended on material written about 175 A.D. Therefore, unless you believe in time travel or can give me a reason to not accept Perrin’s analysis, the Gospel of Thomas was written after 175 A.D. > As I already said, it doesn’t matter that Thomas “has been dated” to the first century. What matters is the _correct_ dating, which is late second century. When you start providing relevant cites, so will I, in the meantime, since Diogenes did such a stellar job of deconstructing your assertions, why don’t you respond to him - or did you over look his post? Hmmm? And we’re still waiting for proof of the validity of Christianity. I guess since you’ve got nothing, all you’re able to do is keep going over the same tired subject matter. It must be nice to be so easily amused. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/75 "2010-12-01T16:54:39Z")
> [@dzero](#): > I already linked to the book _Thomas and Tatian: The Relationship between the Gospel of Thomas and the Diatessaron_, by Nicholas Perrin, which proves that the Gosepl of Thomas was not written until 175 A.D. **Diogenese the Cynic** claimed that Perrin’s book is not accurate, but as usual he gave no reason why the book should not be viewed as accurate. So there’s my cite. Now it’s your turn. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/76 "2010-12-01T16:55:20Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > But certain “heresies” clearly DID. Read Luke 1: 1-4. Luke himself admits that there were competing “gospels” out there, at the time he sat down to write. And this was in the very earliest days of the post-Resurrection church: between 50 and 80 AD. Luke was talking about having read whatever prior Christian literature was a available to him (namely Mark and Q, and possibly a 3rd source. He also probably used Josephus). He doesn’t say they were “competing” accounts, but he stuck to the Pauline school. He also wasn’t writing before the 90’s CE. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/77 "2010-12-01T16:57:00Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Which religion has a central figure that all major religions & many minor religions truly respect? Buddhism. > [@](#): > > What religion has undergirded a civilization which combines freedom, stability & prosperity for its peoples & is a draw for all other peoples of other nations? None. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/78 "2010-12-01T17:00:20Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I asked God. I was told that all the existing ones are kind of wrong (or at least were heavily cluttered up with overly literal oversimplifications and metaphors that were treated as absolute literal truth). The correct one is, of course, the one I started myself. Are you Joseph Smith? That sounds exactly like him. > [@](#): > > Although I might be wrong. Uh, never mind. Smith never said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/79 "2010-12-01T17:02:07Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I already linked to the book _Thomas and Tatian: The Relationship between the Gospel of Thomas and the Diatessaron_, by Nicholas Perrin, which proves that the Gosepl of Thomas was not written until 175 A.D. **Diogenese the Cynic** claimed that Perrin’s book is not accurate, but as usual he gave no reason why the book should not be viewed as accurate. So there’s my cite. Now it’s your turn. Diogenese is much more familiar with the subject so I will defer to his expertise in the matter. Since you are not responding to each of the points he raised or engaging him directly when he is clearly the more qualified party, I can only assume you are unable to do so. edit - as i have said repeatedly now, I am not interested in discussing the history of christianity. You claimed that you had proof of its validity, but you do nothing other than argue minutiae. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311/80 "2010-12-01T17:13:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You need to read the right papers then. Religious experiences are, by definition, psychotic episodes. There have probably been half a dozen occasions where you’ve said that, I’ve asked you for a cite, and you’ve failed to provide one. [In this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=580284) I even went so far as to post definitions of ‘religious experience’ and ‘psychotic episode’, thus proving that you’re wrong. Nevertheless, I’ll give you another chance. If you want me to “read the papers”, then link to these actual papers which prove that what you’re saying is true. > [@](#): > > Name a single example of any actual miracle or supernatural event. The life story of [Alexandrina da Costa](http://alexandrina.balasar.free.fr/blessed_alexandrina_maria.htm) contains several, also [Rita Klaus](http://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/rita-klaus/), [John Traynor](http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml), and many others. Books such as [Remarkable Recovery](http://www.amazon.com/Remarkable-Recovery-Extraordinary-Healings-Getting/dp/0788161741/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291223391&sr=1-1'), [The Miracle Detective](http://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Detective-Randall-Sullivan/dp/0802141951/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291223428&sr=1-1), and [Lourdes: A Modern Pilgrimage](http://www.amazon.com/Lourdes-Modern-Pilgrimage-Patrick-Marnham/dp/038518252X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291223478&sr=1-1) document these cases and others carefully. Having debated this topic with you before, I know that your usual response is to call anyone who believes in anything supernatural an “idiot” or “crackpot” while not addressing what they’re actually saying, of course, but perhaps this time will be different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-how-do-we-know-which-religion-is-the-correct-one/562311.md?page=5)