# Believers: What part of your dogma do you not accept? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009 "2012-02-25T22:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/61 "2012-03-05T18:48:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Catholic here. I have a problem with transubstantiation. Look, just because you take some wafers and wine and say some words, they actually become the body and blood of Jesus? Sorry, but if you put it under a microscope, you aren’t going to see any human/divine cells. The incarnation of Jesus I have no problem with, but the perpetual virginity of Mary I don’t buy. I don’t believe in original sin, we all sin but the idea that we have a rap sheet as soon as we emerge from the womb is silly. Finally, I don’t believe in hell. If I’m a loving God, I open up the doors of heaven to everybody. I’m seeing a lot of posts from Catholics that do not accept a large portion of Catholic teachings, and I have to ask: How much do you have to differ from Catholic dogma before you would be willing to say, “I am no longer a Catholic”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/62 "2012-03-05T18:48:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Or maybe it’s not that you don’t accept it, but you’re agnostic about it and choose not to dwell on it. Even though fellow congregants don’t share this view and would probably be shocked if they learned how you truly felt. > > Up till my early 20s, I considered myself a Christian (though I was always of the “doubting” variety). But even though I could accept the central tenets of the faith, I always rejected the idea of hell. Not just the fire-and-brimstone-for-all-eternity hell, but even the “poof begone” kind, where “bad” souls simply cease to exist. In my mind, hell just didn’t jibe with the concept of loving, caring, forgiving god. A scary god impossible to sincerely worship because the fear would counteract any love, yeah. But not the god that we are urged to beseech when in need and commanded to love before anything else. > > As I think about it, I think my rejection of hell led to my rejection of everything. Because without hell, there is nothing to be “saved” from. Which means Jesus was just a good role model–he needn’t have risen from the dead or have been divine. Which means there isn’t anything I need to “believe” to be a good person…I can just be a good person. Because of my experience with questioning, I understand why some people don’t like to think too hard when it comes to their religious beliefs. > > Just curious about the things people of faith have little to no faith in, despite the teachings they have been taught, and I would like to know what they do to keep their belief system from falling apart. I agree that hell is an idiotic concept. Bernie Madoff gets the same eternity as Adolf Hitler of burning torture? Sorry, that isn’t justice. In fact eternity of burning torture is too much for Hitler, he only killed 50 million plus people. A year each might even be too much. In fact, torture is too much. ---
**Author:** ![baronsabato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@baronsabato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baronsabato)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/63 "2012-03-05T19:03:40Z")
I’m United Church of Christ. We don’t really have much official dogma to go against. If anything, the fact that I occasionally entertain the notion of an afterlife, the Virgin Birth, and a physical resurrection goes against a lot of what my pastor (and many other UCC pastors) tends to preach (“Jesus sinned, just like the rest of us” “Heaven is wherever justice happens”). But I love Jesus, I think social justice is important, and I’m all about diversity and gay people, so I pretty much toe the basic “dogma” of the UCC as I see it. (Unless you go to one of those “Biblical Witness Fellowship” churches in the UCC, then yeah, I pretty much reject everything they teach) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/64 "2012-03-05T19:17:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m seeing a lot of posts from Catholics that do not accept a large portion of Catholic teachings, and I have to ask: How much do you have to differ from Catholic dogma before you would be willing to say, “I am no longer a Catholic”? I have created [a new thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=644213) for this question. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/65 "2012-03-05T22:15:36Z")
Well, if I count myself as a member of the Assemblies of God, then the main thing I disagree with is the existence of Hell as they describe it. It’s just not in the Bible that way, and it doesn’t square away with what I know about God. The biggest part I have a problem with is the idea that it’s eternal. I’m also partial to the Jehovah’s Witness belief that we don’t go directly to heaven; it only seems like that from our perspective. This isn’t really a disagreement, though, since I don’t think it really matters. But some of the AoG do: they use it as “proof” that Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t Christian. Finally, I disagree with the official position that dancing is evil, as stated on our membership applications. But pretty much everyone at my church disagrees with that. It’s just that I’m the only person anal enough to cross that part out before signing the membership form. EDIT: And I said that about hell before reading the rest of the thread. Great minds and all that. EDIT number 2: I feel I also mostly agree with FriarTed. It’s been so long since I’ve really studied the positions of my church, I forgot about that stuff. Heck, I didn’t know we were officially Young Earth Creationist. I only disagree in the sense of accepting Jesus in the afterlife. I subscribe more to the perspective of C.S. Lewis" that someone can be a Christian without knowing it. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/66 "2012-03-05T22:35:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The truth is that it does matter if it’s true. If a guy who promoted himself as a expert oncologist was found to be a high school dropout who had never even attended college let alone medical school, why in the hell should anyone put any credence into his advice about cancer therapy? Especially in the absence of hard evidence showing that his advice was sound? If someone’s claim to fame and expertise totally rests upon lies and myth, then their opinions should be treated likewise. Let’s suppose for a minute instead that this oncologist who dropped out of high school actually did find a cure for some form of cancer. Should it be denounced by the medical community because the idea didn’t come from someone with M.D. after his name? I do believe in what I consider to be the important parts of the Christian theology, see my post up thread if it’s relevant, but even to non-Christians, whether or not Jesus really is the son of God or not, whether he really resurrected or not, the fundamentals of his teachings about how to treat other people ought to stand on their own. The point is that these were people who needed that authority to believe that something was a good idea, like charity and compassion and all of that. Today, we don’t really need that appeal to authority so much. At least when I say that it doesn’t really matter, it’s not that I don’t believe what I believe, but rather that even if I’m wrong, I still believe that I’m a moral and ethical person and, if there is no God, that’s what really matters then anyway, right? > [@](#): > > That isn’t to say that Jesus didn’t have good ideas. A lot of what’s attributed to Jesus in the Gospels is moving to me. But I’ve read self-help books that I’ve found equally inspirational, if not more so. Fiction too. What qualifies people to have inspirational stories or good ideas about how to treat your fellow man? Maybe if Jesus were alive today, he’d just be a motivational speaker or philosopher himself. Maybe if one of those people had been alive back then, they might have had a movement around themselves instead. So yeah, the theology matters as far as the theology goes, but if something is moral because we believe someone to be something and they turn out not to be, it doesn’t suddenly make that statement wrong. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/67 "2012-03-05T23:37:18Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Oh, man, I know _exactly_ what you mean. For example, I don’t like Thai food,\* and so I go around trying to tell people who say things like “I just love Pad See Ew,” that no, in fact they don’t, and they’re just telling themselves that so they can feel cosmopolitan. > > How can people possibly come to different conclusions than the ones I reach? If I know everything—and I do—then when people deviate from my views, they’re plainly just in error. Blessed are you among ironists, and blessed be the fruit of your keyboard. ::Leaves thread, sobbing tears of joy. :: ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/68 "2012-03-06T03:10:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Well, if I count myself as a member of the Assemblies of God, then the main thing I disagree with is the existence of Hell as they describe it. It’s just not in the Bible that way, and it doesn’t square away with what I know about God. The biggest part I have a problem with is the idea that it’s eternal. > > I’m also partial to the Jehovah’s Witness belief that we don’t go directly to heaven; it only seems like that from our perspective. This isn’t really a disagreement, though, since I don’t think it really matters. But some of the AoG do: they use it as “proof” that Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t Christian. > > Finally, I disagree with the official position that dancing is evil, as stated on our membership applications. But pretty much everyone at my church disagrees with that. It’s just that I’m the only person anal enough to cross that part out before signing the membership form. > > EDIT: And I said that about hell before reading the rest of the thread. Great minds and all that. > > EDIT number 2: I feel I also mostly agree with FriarTed. It’s been so long since I’ve really studied the positions of my church, I forgot about that stuff. Heck, I didn’t know we were officially Young Earth Creationist. > > I only disagree in the sense of accepting Jesus in the afterlife. I subscribe more to the perspective of C.S. Lewis" that someone can be a Christian without knowing it. You had a membership application that stated that about dancing? I didn’t. My membership application just had the basic basics & back then, I believed in Eternal Hell. It was known by the pastor & elders that I didn’t agree about alcohol but they told me it was OK if I didn’t make an issue of it. I only found out that AoG was officially Young Earther by perusing the website. Supposedly, somewhere the AoG has a position on Anglo-Israelism, which I kinda adhere to, which comes down to- you can believe it but not push it. Not sure what you mean by “going directly to Heaven”- now, Biblically, it’s obvious that the ultimate goal is Heaven being restored to Earth & us living forever on Paradise Earth. Where I really differ with the Witnesses is their limiting the ‘Elite’ of the faith to 144000 & making them a totally distinct group from the Multitudes that are saved. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/69 "2012-03-06T04:46:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I used to believe this, when I was still going around calling myself a Christian despite my total disregard for the dogma. Then gradually it dawned on me that I was just deluding myself. > > The truth is that it does matter if it’s true. If a guy who promoted himself as a expert oncologist was found to be a high school dropout who had never even attended college let alone medical school, why in the hell should anyone put any credence into his advice about cancer therapy? Especially in the absence of hard evidence showing that his advice was sound? If someone’s claim to fame and expertise totally rests upon lies and myth, then their opinions should be treated likewise. > > That isn’t to say that Jesus didn’t have good ideas. A lot of what’s attributed to Jesus in the Gospels is moving to me. But I’ve read self-help books that I’ve found equally inspirational, if not more so. Fiction too. I’m not sure what you’re saying here. “If a guy?” what guy? Jesus? We don’t know for sure if that person even existed , much less, what he actually said, as opposed to what is attributed to him. Because I no longer accept that Jesus died and rose again to atone for our sins, which seems to be the pivotal belief in Christianity , I no longer call myself a Christian. I think Christianty has misunderstood much of what Jesus taught and is stressing the wrong things. The guy I was talking to seemed to be saying , it doesn’t matter to my day to day life whether the rapture is true or not. If it happens fine, If it doesn’t that’s okay too. I feel that same way about most Christian doctrine. IMO the teachings of Jesus are about our transformation as people through the inner work, and that work translating into how we live together and affect each others lives. If I take care of that, day to day, the rest doesn’t matter and will resolve itself {or not} at the appropriate time. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/70 "2012-03-06T04:52:16Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I agree that hell is an idiotic concept. Bernie Madoff gets the same eternity as Adolf Hitler of burning torture? Sorry, that isn’t justice. In fact eternity of burning torture is too much for Hitler, he only killed 50 million plus people. A year each might even be too much. In fact, torture is too much. I read an example of why that didn’t make sense. Take a line of every person alive amd every person who ever was alive. They are in line according to how good they have been with the best person on one end of the line and the worst on the other. Does it really seem like justice to put your hand between two people in line who are seperated by so little difference of the good or bad in them , and say “everyone on this side gets to go to Heaven, and everyone on this side goes to damnation” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/71 "2012-03-06T05:03:44Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Let’s suppose for a minute instead that this oncologist who dropped out of high school actually did find a cure for some form of cancer. Should it be denounced by the medical community because the idea didn’t come from someone with M.D. after his name? > > I do believe in what I consider to be the important parts of the Christian theology, see my post up thread if it’s relevant, but even to non-Christians, whether or not Jesus really is the son of God or not, whether he really resurrected or not, the fundamentals of his teachings about how to treat other people ought to stand on their own. The point is that these were people who needed that authority to believe that something was a good idea, like charity and compassion and all of that. > > Today, we don’t really need that appeal to authority so much. At least when I say that it doesn’t really matter, it’s not that I don’t believe what I believe, but rather that even if I’m wrong, I still believe that I’m a moral and ethical person and, if there is no God, that’s what really matters then anyway, right? Exactly. Thanks for putting it that way. I agreee with you on the authority thing. I think more people are waking up to that. Moreover I disagree when the church, a church, or denomination, stresses what you believe over how and who you are as a person. There’s something moving and powerful about great inspirational words and music on Sunday morning, but that should be the minor part, the reminder or recharging, as you do the work of inner growth that affects those around you. > [@](#): > > What qualifies people to have inspirational stories or good ideas about how to treat your fellow man? Maybe if Jesus were alive today, he’d just be a motivational speaker or philosopher himself. Maybe if one of those people had been alive back then, they might have had a movement around themselves instead. > > So yeah, the theology matters as far as the theology goes, but if something is moral because we believe someone to be something and they turn out not to be, it doesn’t suddenly make that statement wrong. Right. I have noticed that sometimes people are moved by the inspirational words of a person who turns out to be a charlatan. Still, the way those words and thoughts resonated within that person was real, and if they value the concept over the details of the source they and others still benifit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/72 "2012-03-06T05:15:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I have noticed that sometimes people are moved by the inspirational words of a person who turns out to be a charlatan. Still, the way those words and thoughts resonated within that person was real, and if they value the concept over the details of the source they and others still benefit. And I have seen people believe absolute crap in addition to whatever other words of wisdom a charlatan spews . ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/73 "2012-03-06T14:45:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I have seen people believe absolute crap in addition to whatever other words of wisdom a charlatan spews . True. I see a tendency in a lot of people to want to believe and follow someone. Hero worship and the need to create a mythology around the heroic figure. Then the ugly truth can disillusion people. It did me occasionally, until I realized it was up to me and my former heros were just flawed humans like I am. I can learn from others , I can consider what they have to say, but it’s still up to me to sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/74 "2012-03-06T15:19:49Z")
Side question: is there a term for people that follow the teachings of Jesus but believe he was just a wise human, and not the son of God? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/75 "2012-03-06T16:15:20Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I have a problem with transubstantiation. Look, just because you take some wafers and wine and say some words, they actually become the body and blood of Jesus? Sorry, but if you put it under a microscope, you aren’t going to see any human/divine cells. Another pedantic Straight Dope moment: Nothing in church teaching addresses the issue of “human/divine cells.” The doctrine as it is promulgated is based on Aristotelean philosphy in which one category of understanding distinguishes between the “substance” or underlying reality of something and the “accidents” or ways in which something can be perceived. The explanation provided by Thomas Aquinas is that the substance, (the ultimately real “thing”), of the bread and wine transforms from just bread and wine to the Body and Blood of Jesus while the accidents of wheat and fermented grape remain. Any examination of the consecrated Eucharist will always find only bread and wine. Opponents of this explanation, (starting with Martin Luther, a follower of Plato’s philosophy that rejected Aristotelian ideas), preferred the explanation that the Body and Blood of Jesus entered into the bread and wine, using the word consubstantiation, or “substances with each other.” Once Luther had made his break, later folks used even different explanations for what they believed happens. So a number of Christian denominations accept a real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist while also rejecting the word transubstantiation. But the issue involves ancient Greek understandings of categories of reality and has nothing to do with scientific examinations of the properties of various materials. To an outsider, of course, this is still all very odd, (or silly), but when discussing it, it helps to understand what is being claimed. [/pedantic Straight Dope moment] ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/76 "2012-03-06T19:14:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Side question: is there a term for people that follow the teachings of Jesus but believe he was just a wise human, and not the son of God? The Unitarians used to be pretty much that- a God-Jesus-Bible centered movement that believed in One God (hence, Unitarian) with Jesus as His Son metaphorically but not through either sharing Divine Essence or via Virgin Birth but in the sense that we’re all Children of God, but he was more aware than most, and the Bible as a source of wisdom & revelation but not inerrant. A few years ago, a group broke off from the UUA to get back to that. It originally called itself the American Unitarian Association but that name was still the property of the UUA so it settled on the American Unitarian Conference. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/77 "2012-03-06T19:23:05Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Let’s suppose for a minute instead that this oncologist who dropped out of high school actually did find a cure for some form of cancer. Should it be denounced by the medical community because the idea didn’t come from someone with M.D. after his name? His idea shouldn’t be denounced as wrong out of hand, but if he lacks the bonafides to speak as a expert, then we have no good reason to believe him. If he’s going to be believed, it’s only because he has unimpeachable data that backs up his claims. This is especially the case if he lied about his credentials to begin with. > [@](#): > > I do believe in what I consider to be the important parts of the Christian theology, see my post up thread if it’s relevant, but even to non-Christians, whether or not Jesus really is the son of God or not, whether he really resurrected or not, the fundamentals of his teachings about how to treat other people ought to stand on their own. **The point is that these were people who needed that authority to believe that something was a good idea, like charity and compassion and all of that.** (bolding mine) Do you think it’s unlikely that humanity would have ever figured out the virtue of being kind to one’s neighbors, charitable, yadda yadda without the coercive influence of religion? Because I don’t. Once one accepts that they don’t need to believe in Christian theology to believe in compassionate living, it seems to me that they also should see Jesus as a non-requirement as well. He didn’t advocate anything so revolutionary that no one else on the planet couldn’t have figured it out. > [@](#): > > So yeah, the theology matters as far as the theology goes, but if something is moral because we believe someone to be something and they turn out not to be, it doesn’t suddenly make that statement wrong. I’m just saying that its foolhardy to blindly accept the ideas attributed to someone–on the hope that they _could_ be right–when you don’t even believe in their claims of authority. If you’re not blindly accepting these ideas, but rather using your own brain to assess the ideas on their own merit based on your own interpretation of right and wrong, then that’s a little different. But in that case, you’re not really a follower of a religion and its disingenuous to label yourself as a follower. Utimately, you’re using yourself as judge of what is ethical, or you’re using empirical evidence–not a higher authority like God. Which means you’re not any different than an atheist, when you get down to it. (And I’m using the general “you”.) Why does this matter? Because when people call themselves Christian (or anything else), whether they want to or not, they are communicating something more than “I think we should treat others as we’d like to be treated”, etc. They are making a statement about theological beliefs, not philosophical ones. When people clling to certain labels due to fear, shame, and guilt, that’s rarely if ever a good thing. I’d say the same thing if we were talking about homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/78 "2012-03-06T19:48:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I have noticed that sometimes people are moved by the inspirational words of a person who turns out to be a charlatan. Still, the way those words and thoughts resonated within that person was real, and if they value the concept over the details of the source they and others still benifit. Human psychology being what it is, we’re capable of being moved and inspired for specious reasons that are not always to our benefit (and often times is extremely harmful). So I don’t think being “moved” means anything by itself. A very charismatic charlatan can inspire us to feel a certain way by exploiting our weaknesses and desires. Once this person is outed as a fraud, don’t you think it would be prudent for us to question our feelings and determine if they might be the product of manipulation? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/79 "2012-03-06T20:23:11Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I agree that hell is an idiotic concept. Bernie Madoff gets the same eternity as Adolf Hitler of burning torture? Sorry, that isn’t justice. In fact eternity of burning torture is too much for Hitler, he only killed 50 million plus people. A year each might even be too much. In fact, torture is too much. Actually, the Bible does reference various degrees of punishment. If everyone simply goes to the lake of fire, why even have the judgement? Matthew 11:20-22 is one example: Then He began to reproach the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 “Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you…I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.” Also verses suggesting less mercy for those who have heard the gospel of Jesus but willingly reject it in their hearts. It’s quite possible that the lost tribe in Amazon who never heard of Jesus will not be sent to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009/80 "2012-03-06T20:27:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why would God, ever omnicient, create a soul that he’s just going to destroy? > > And destroy them not for being evil and vile, but for merely not believing in him? Or maybe believing in him as a general concept, but not in any dogmatic way. Well, most Christians don’t believe that He did create souls that he’s just going to destroy. \*Some \*Christians, those of a Calvinist bent, do believe in predestination, or double predestination, and limited atonement. \*Some \*Christians do believe that those who have not affirmed their belief in Christ as God incarnate are not saved. But most don’t. Most Christians believe that those who are not saved choose their own fate. Most Christians believe that those who have never had the opportunity to hear and understand the Word are not damned because of their ignorance. And I think that most Christians understand that there’s more to hearing and understanding the Word than just hearing the name Jesus once in a while. Some Christians even believe in unversal salvation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-part-of-your-dogma-do-you-not-accept/614009.md?page=5)