# Believers: What would it take to convince you your faith is false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936 "2011-01-09T01:32:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/21 "2011-01-09T21:37:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Quick question, how would the universe be any different at all if you’d just imagined and deluded yourself into belief? This would depend if the mind is capable of observing a objective reality instead of my belief of subjective reality and the mind is designed to design reality. Your question would only matter if: reality was objective AND that objective reality is observable by people AND the mind was incapable of creating it’s own version of reality. If all that I would hate to even think of such a world, the suffering that would happen here. Life on earth would be horrible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/22 "2011-01-09T22:13:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > From one who has seen Jesus… Could you please describe him to us? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/23 "2011-01-10T00:54:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could you please describe him to us? Love, overwhelming Love, all problems are gone and you feel totally at home where you were always meant to be. Much like a heroine addict describes their first hit, without the withdrawal symptoms. Also there is the absolute knowing that He is the Lord. The physical appearance is quite unimportant, and why I mentioned it last, as He will use any form He chooses, and will chose the form He wants, including the traditional westernized appearance which was the form He chose with me. I know the thing you want the most, facts, measurements, clothing, email address, SS # etc, but that is the least important factor almost irrelevant. I would like to get the chance to see the infant Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/24 "2011-01-10T01:44:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Love, overwhelming Love, all problems are gone and you feel totally at home where you were always meant to be. > > Much like a heroine addict describes their first hit, without the withdrawal symptoms. > > Also there is the absolute knowing that He is the Lord. Nitpick: There is only one “e” in heroin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/25 "2011-01-10T01:55:43Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not being religious… > _fascinated_ What [intellectually honest] way do atheists have of explaining the problem of evil ? Other than admitting it is subjective illusion in a wholly meaningless universe ? > Evil still exists no matter how one rationalizes causes and effects, and no matter what one’s belief-system explains away. The “problem of evil” is not a **problem** unless your belief-system raises incompatible expectations, i.e., that God/the Universe is just and, therefore, bad things should not happen to good people, or whatever. To an atheist, shit that happens is shit that happens. That does not mean that the atheist has no business making moral judgments about shit that happens, or raising a moral objection to it, or even trying to do something about it; but only that the phenomenon does not raise any cosmic questions. As for “meaningless”: Sorry, existence does not come equipped with “meaning” as a standard feature; you have to provide your own, as an after-market add-on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/26 "2011-01-10T02:05:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This would depend if the mind is capable of observing a objective reality instead of my belief of subjective reality and the mind is designed to design reality. Your question would only matter if: > reality was objective > AND > that objective reality is observable by people > AND > the mind was incapable of creating it’s own version of reality. > > If all that I would hate to even think of such a world, the suffering that would happen here. Life on earth would be horrible. But, this appears to **be** such a world, with the significant exception that the mind **is** capable of creating its own version of reality. "The mind is its own place, and in itself “Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n.” – _Paradise Lost_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/27 "2011-01-10T02:15:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The physical appearance is quite unimportant… Yeah, but why don’t you go ahead and give it a shot, seeing as how that _was_ the question I asked you. The rest of it you can cut and paste for when someone asks you how he made you feel. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/28 "2011-01-10T03:41:04Z")
He mentioned that his appearance was both traditional and westernized. Don’t know what to make of that, maybe a beard and blonde hair? Like the son of [this woman](http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=100491)? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/29 "2011-01-10T04:41:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The physical appearance is quite unimportant, and why I mentioned it last, as He will use any form He chooses . . . But, he really **is** a lion, that’s no metaphor. And not a **tame** lion, either. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/30 "2011-01-10T16:46:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, this appears to **be** such a world, I would agree that it **appears** that way, but would not state it\*\* is\*\* that way and have observed ‘flaws in the matrix’ so to speak. This is the reason for the slight differences in the 4 gospels, differing realities of the 4 observers (Q document not withstanding). Each one is true for a personal reality, or sets of realities. A simple example to see this is after a rather significant event ask the people who saw it what happened and you will get different stories, after they talk and hear other versions they tend to come to one version. > [@](#): > > with the significant exception that the mind **is** capable of creating its own version of reality. > > "The mind is its own place, and in itself > “Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n.” > > – _Paradise Lost_ Yes this is a large part of it, the mind is there to create realities for us to live in, and yes a mind can create a living hell or a heaven out of the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/31 "2011-01-10T16:47:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, he really **is** a lion, that’s no metaphor. > > And not a **tame** lion, either. So you have seen the Narnia series too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/32 "2011-01-10T16:53:55Z")
Let me throw out a hypothetical for believers: What if we set up an experiment where you sat down and wore a [magnet helmet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet) that can manipulate the brain, and induce the exact same warm fuzzy feeling of pure love, that you believe to be bestowed on you by Jesus (or whatever deity you believe in). Would that give you second thoughts about whether you’re experiences are caused by the supernatural, or are purely a product of the physical brain? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/33 "2011-01-10T17:00:08Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Let me throw out a hypothetical for believers: What if we set up an experiment where you sat down and wore a [magnet helmet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet) that can manipulate the brain, and induce the exact same warm fuzzy feeling of pure love, that you believe to be bestowed on you by Jesus (or whatever deity you believe in). Would that give you second thoughts about whether you’re experiences are caused by the supernatural, or are purely a product of the physical brain? As I pointed out you can experience it now by using heroin( the type without the extra e at the end 😉 ) It doesn’t change anything, but proves it is a state that we are capable if experiencing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/34 "2011-01-10T17:03:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nitpick: There is only one “e” in heroin. Not if you really, really like Wonder Woman. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/35 "2011-01-10T17:03:32Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Would that give you second thoughts about whether you’re experiences are caused by the supernatural, or are purely a product of the physical brain? Why do you think the two are antithetical? Could not God have created (either directly or through evolution) our brains specifically to have a nerve center which It can stimulate? And, like cannaboid or opiod receptors in the brain, what was evolved to respond to one trigger may respond to others. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/36 "2011-01-10T17:09:14Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not being religious… > _fascinated_ What [intellectually honest] way do atheists have of explaining the problem of evil ? Other than admitting it is subjective illusion in a wholly meaningless universe ? > Evil still exists no matter how one rationalizes causes and effects, and no matter what one’s belief-system explains away. As mentioned, the **Problem** of evil assumes God. But it is also easy for atheists to explain the existence of evil. Natural evil - people being killed by floods and earthquakes - happens because the natural world is driven by physical processes totally unrelated to the presence of thinking beings. I almost said uncaring processes, but that kind of implies they can care. Calling these evil is absurd, actually. As for evil done to each other, genetic diversity says we are born with a range of abilities of fitting into society, so there will be sociopaths who don’t get that killing people is wrong. We also have different and conflicting goals, and me achieving my goal may get in the way of you achieving yours. So the reason we don’t hear atheists discussing evil is that the solution is so trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/37 "2011-01-10T17:14:44Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > You don’t seem to be getting any replies, so let me ask you — what would it take to convince you that the God of the Christian Bible exists? > > I considered myself an atheist for many years, but I’ve recently decided that I am actually an agnostic in the technical sense, i.e. I believe that the question of whether God exists is not decidable. > > I can think of all kinds of things that would convince me that there are beings of inhuman power or intelligence, but I can’t think of anything that could convince me that the Bible is essentially true, i.e. that God created the universe, made man the pinnacle of his creation, takes a detailed interest in our lives, and punishes or rewards us in the afterlife. > > Can you? I don’t think you need to show that the Bible is inerrant to show that God exists - if you do, then that train has left the station long since. Finding verifiable first person accounts of the resurrection might help. Even bigger miracles than the one you describe would also. But the Christian God is inherently contradictory - omnipotence is not logically compatible with either omniscience of omnibenevolence, so if the Christian God is tri- or bi-omni it has vanished in a puff of logic, even granted that an omnipotent god still can’t do logically impossible things like the burrito example. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/38 "2011-01-10T18:26:54Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not being religious… > _fascinated_ What [intellectually honest] way do atheists have of explaining the problem of evil ? Other than admitting it is subjective illusion in a wholly meaningless universe ? > Evil still exists no matter how one rationalizes causes and effects, and no matter what one’s belief-system explains away. Can you define “evil”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/39 "2011-01-10T22:16:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Why do you think the two are antithetical? > > Could not God have created (either directly or through evolution) our brains specifically to have a nerve center which It can stimulate? And, like cannaboid or opiod receptors in the brain, what was evolved to respond to one trigger may respond to others. What, like a programmer writing in a backdoor? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936/40 "2011-01-10T22:21:39Z")
I believe that the correct electrical stimulus of the optic nerve can cause a subject to see flashes of light. I don’t think that proves that there is no such thing as light. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-what-would-it-take-to-convince-you-your-faith-is-false/566936.md?page=3)