# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/181 "2010-06-30T01:06:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > However Quantum Mechanics is pointing the way to non-corporal existences right now, and will no doubt become more popular in the future. Please provide a cite to a scientific study that shows this. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/182 "2010-06-30T01:06:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Science teaches that only a materialist world exists, the same thing as saying nothing supernatural exists. … > > Science materialism will never show the existence of non-corporal existenses, so you will never believe. However Quantum Mechanics is pointing the way to non-corporal existences right now, and will no doubt become more popular in the future. I see. Human science is limited by human perception of the natural or material world. So, to believe only in the proofs of human science is to fail to acknowledge human limitations of observation, measuring, and testing. I think people, such as myself, who rely on human or material evidence to support their beliefs, acknowledge that limitation by admitting that what we might consider “supernatural” is possible, but we lack the current ability to consistently observe or test it. That is why many atheists do not affirmatively deny the existence of God; rather, they simply withhold affirmative belief due to the lack of current material evidence that can be tested by human perception. That doesn’t explain why so may people hold an affirmative belief in something “supernatural” and make all kinds of claims as to the behavior, motives, and properties of supernatural things. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/183 "2010-06-30T01:49:54Z")
I’m not sure which of the threads I should post to … As Believer has not been defined in this post, and I do believe in something beyond our current capabilities of measurement (consider conventional v. electron microscopes), I will post here. > [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#): > > I just had a conversation with a (what I consider to be crazy ) friend of mine. They told me all about how God plants ‘evidence’ of an older universe In my opinion, your friend is, indeed, crazy. Why the hell would anyone posit a one god that plants deceptive evidence instead of one that create systems rather than things? This is not just a matter of Occam’s Razor. Your friend’s world view requires a deceitful omnipotent god and no valid science. That just is not right. It is also, if your friend is a Christian, blasphemous, akin to an American opposing the burning of the flag. > [@](#): > > My question is this: Why? If God is magic, why can’t we all be like Gumby? Why does everything need to justify itself scientifically? In other words, why does God need to hide his magic behind what seems to be math logic? If we really are just life breathed into dust, why all all the justification? Why can’t we just be living ‘plastic’? Gods are not magic. We are not clay stick figures. Events are explained, not justified, in science. Math and logic are wonderful basic tools for exploring and explaining the observed universe. Life, breathed into dust or created otherwise, is growth, including intellectual growth. What do I believe in? I believe there are things I do not understand, that no scientist has defined, measured, tested, and published about. I also believe there is a logical coherence to the universe. I believe that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, and that human efforts are a type of energy. I believe that people cannot develop abilities for which there is no cultural context. Most of all, I believe in science. The universe is ours to observe, measure, understand, and question again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/184 "2010-06-30T04:19:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I didn’t ask how they were raised, that don’t tell me what they believe now. This is in direct contreadiction to your own claims: > [@lekatt](#): > > Science teaches that only a materialist world exists, the same thing as saying nothing supernatural exists. I do not reject all of science, only those doctrines that can’t be proven. They are “all is materialism”, “personal experience is unreliable,” and that “theories are somehow more than theories.” That is for starters, I may find more. I find it unscientific that many scientists turn their backs on solid research only because it is contrary to their current theories. Usually saying it is not good research when it clearly is good research. > > Science materialism will never show the existence of non-corporal existenses, so you will never believe. However Quantum Mechanics is pointing the way to non-corporal existences right now, and will no doubt become more popular in the future. > [@lekatt](#): > > Most on this board were taught to believe in science, taught that nothing supernatural or spiritual exists, but that teaching is not based on proof or an understanding of the whole universe. So, you falsely claim that science teaches that there is no spiritual realm, when science does no such thing. Then you claim that the members of this board were taught your version of what science teaches. Now you claim that you do not care what they were taught (which is what you claimed) but that you are only intereested in their current beliefs. So you are just making up stuff and changing your position whenever you need to squirm away from your earlier claims. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/185 "2010-06-30T12:57:38Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > I see. Human science is limited by human perception of the natural or material world. So, to believe only in the proofs of human science is to fail to acknowledge human limitations of observation, measuring, and testing. > > I think people, such as myself, who rely on human or material evidence to support their beliefs, acknowledge that limitation by admitting that what we might consider “supernatural” is possible, but we lack the current ability to consistently observe or test it. That is why many atheists do not affirmatively deny the existence of God; rather, they simply withhold affirmative belief due to the lack of current material evidence that can be tested by human perception. > > That doesn’t explain why so may people hold an affirmative belief in something “supernatural” and make all kinds of claims as to the behavior, motives, and properties of supernatural things. I don’t believe science will ever have the ability to consistently observe spiritual events. By their very nature they are personal, one time, events. Even when someone has two visions, or NDEs, or OBEs, they are unique to the time and situation of the occurrance. I think scientists need to get over the idea that everything can be tested by the scientific method. It is not infallible, being devised by man, it will not cover all situations. Spirituality is connected with love, and love while being normally thought of as an emotion is much more than that in reality. Love is a state of consciousness, that empowers the individual to an awareness, and knowledge they wouldn’t have without it. Love is also a force, or creative power that changes lives and creates the desires and wishes of the individual’s beliefs, and thought patterns. Love holds things together, without it things fall apart. Love is the spiritual path, and those who walk it have a decided advantage over those who don’t. We are in the physical to learn those facts and test them. Some do quickly, and others may take hundreds of years to do so. It is only a matter of choice. That is why God is Love. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/186 "2010-06-30T13:52:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > However Quantum Mechanics is pointing the way to non-corporal existences right now, and will no doubt become more popular in the future. Again, I ask you to provide a cite for this claim about quantum mechanics. Please, no opinion pieces or anonymous anecdotes-scientific studies would be greatly appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/187 "2010-06-30T14:06:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, I ask you to provide a cite for this claim about quantum mechanics. Please, no opinion pieces or anonymous anecdotes-scientific studies would be greatly appreciated. [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/07/entanglement/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/07/entanglement/) Spiritual Oneness of all things. [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/10/quantum-consciousness/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/10/quantum-consciousness/) All is consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/188 "2010-06-30T14:11:45Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/07/entanglement/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/07/entanglement/) > > Spiritual Oneness of all things. > > [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/10/quantum-consciousness/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/2009/10/quantum-consciousness/) > > All is consciousness. W. T. _F??_ Is this some sort of sick joke, or did you not understand what I asked for? ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/189 "2010-06-30T14:22:31Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > However Quantum Mechanics is pointing the way to non-corporal existences right now, and will no doubt become more popular in the future. Please, quantum mechanics is so poorly understood by the lay population (myself included), that it’s easy for quacks to take it and mold and massage it into looking like it backs up their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/190 "2010-06-30T14:24:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > W. > T. > _F??_ > > Is this some sort of sick joke, or did you not understand what I asked for? These are teaching videos that explain the laws of quantum mechanics to those interested. Whatever you think the research might be would not suit you. A list of quantum teaching videos. [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/category/quantum-thinking/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/category/quantum-thinking/) I never expected to please any atheist or skeptic, these are for those who want to learn. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/191 "2010-06-30T14:31:06Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > Please, quantum mechanics is so poorly understood by the lay population (myself included), that it’s easy for quacks to take it and mold and massage it into looking like it backs up their beliefs. Well, these videos were not produced by quacks, they were done by qualified people. However, no one can shield you from those that would want to mislead, so you study the subject from many angles by many scientists, and that will produce the thread of reality you seek. There are no guarantees on anything in this world. Walking the path of love is a guarantee of knowledge and reality. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/192 "2010-06-30T14:33:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > These are teaching videos that explain the laws of quantum mechanics to those interested. > > Whatever you think the research might be would not suit you. > > A list of quantum teaching videos. > > [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/category/quantum-thinking/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/category/quantum-thinking/) > > I never expected to please any atheist or skeptic, these are for those who want to learn. Could you _please_ link to something other than your(already overly promoted by you) website? A _direct_ link to a site that contains real studies done by real people. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/193 "2010-06-30T15:52:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > These are teaching videos that explain the laws of quantum mechanics to those interested. > > Whatever you think the research might be would not suit you. > > A list of quantum teaching videos. > > [http://www.aleroy.com/blog/category/quantum-thinking/](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/category/quantum-thinking/) > > I never expected to please any atheist or skeptic, these are for those who want to learn. What ‘laws’ of QM are explained in those videos do you think? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/194 "2010-06-30T16:22:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Could you _please_ link to something other than your(already overly promoted by you) website? A _direct_ link to a site that contains real studies done by real people. You could search for that on your own. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/195 "2010-06-30T16:23:52Z")
> [@martu](#): > > What ‘laws’ of QM are explained in those videos do you think? You will just have to view them to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/196 "2010-06-30T16:28:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You could search for that on your own. It was _your_ claim, therefore _you_ should provide a valid cite. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/197 "2010-06-30T16:29:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You will just have to view them to find out. How in the world would _us_ viewing those videos tell us what _you_ think about the laws of quantum mechanics? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/198 "2010-06-30T16:43:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You will just have to view them to find out. They don’t explain any laws of QM. Please show me how wrong I am by pointing to a video and a time stamp on the video, here fill in the X, Y and Z in this statement: “On video at time [Y] the QM ‘law’ [Z] is explained.” Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/199 "2010-06-30T19:21:25Z")
You might try looking here > **[Introduction to quantum mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_quantum_mechanics)** > > Quantum mechanics is the study of matter and its interactions with energy on the scale of atomic and subatomic particles. By contrast, classical physics explains matter and energy only on a scale familiar to human experience, including the behavior of astronomical bodies such as the moon. Classical physics is still used in much of modern science and technology. However, towards the end of the 19th century, scientists discovered phenomena in both the large (macro) and the small (micro) worlds th... ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/200 "2010-06-30T19:22:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How in the world would _us_ viewing those videos tell us what _you_ think about the laws of quantum mechanics? Why would you need to know what I thought? Just view, read and make up your own mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=11)