# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/281 "2010-07-05T20:58:57Z")
'_Fighting Ignorance Since 1973_" We couldn’t do it without you, **kanicbird**. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/282 "2010-07-05T22:18:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Like all things there are varing degrees, some elders have been given much love, and can cure many, like through the giant pharmaceutical companies, others such as doctors and medical technicians can cure a smaller number, but all only through the love of God flowing through them and accepted by the patient. This is why the placebo sometimes works. What about a scientist who honestly doesn’t give a damn about healing people, but only is in it for profit? If your “love is all you need” hypothesis is correct, wouldn’t we see instances where the exact same substance, made in the same way, but by different manufacturers, have a marked difference in their effectiveness? How do you account for the dramatic [increase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_variation_over_time) in life expectancy within the past 100 years, ever since the invention of antibiotics and vaccines, and the knowledge of the Germ Theory of Disease which has increased sanitation procedures? ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/283 "2010-07-05T22:20:09Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > How do you account for the dramatic [increase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_variation_over_time) in life expectancy within the past 100 years, ever since the invention of antibiotics and vaccines? Small quibble, sanitation has had more effect on life expectancy than antibiotics or vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/284 "2010-07-05T22:22:16Z")
Have you ever taken any medicine in your life, Kanicbird? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/285 "2010-07-06T00:24:40Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Have you ever taken any medicine in your life, Kanicbird? Yes. To go into a bit more detail, what I currently do in a situation where some drug may be helpful is: 1: Ask God as a small child would ask his parent, let Him know what is distressing me, and ask for guidance and/or healing. 2: If I feel I get a reply, follow it, if not do what is a reasonable corse of action, which may be take some medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/286 "2010-07-06T00:30:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > 2: If I feel I get a reply, follow it, if not do what is a reasonable corse of action, which may be take some medicine. So you are saying that following your deity’s advice would be an _un_reasonable course of action? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/287 "2010-07-06T00:34:22Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What about a scientist who honestly doesn’t give a damn about healing people, but only is in it for profit? Basically that person will not negate the elder healer in the company, but have other effects, like charging people to receive the Love of God. Also the person who is the healing elder may be very low on the totem pole in the drug manufacturing company. > [@](#): > > If your “love is all you need” hypothesis is correct, wouldn’t we see instances where the exact same substance, made in the same way, but by different manufacturers, have a marked difference in their effectiveness? Yes, check out the generic vs brand name ADHD meds, many people have noticed a very large difference in effectiveness. But besides that, God has His church (His people) in every aspect of society, in drug companies, in organized crime, in government, in education, in the SDMB, in law enforcement, etc. so it is possible that the love of God can flow through generics as God has His people there also. > [@](#): > > How do you account for the dramatic [increase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_variation_over_time) in life expectancy within the past 100 years, ever since the invention of antibiotics and vaccines, and the knowledge of the Germ Theory of Disease which has increased sanitation procedures? Gifts of the Love of God that work through drugs, I never denied it, just that it is very very inefficient, a large drain on resources, and unneeded. There is also a factor of quality of an individual life, which has to be factored in. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/288 "2010-07-06T00:46:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Basically that person will not negate the elder healer in the company, but have other effects, like charging people to receive the Love of God. Also the person who is the healing elder may be very low on the totem pole in the drug manufacturing company. > Yes, check out the generic vs brand name ADHD meds, many people have noticed a very large difference in effectiveness. But besides that, God has His church (His people) in every aspect of society, in drug companies, in organized crime, in government, in education, in the SDMB, in law enforcement, etc. so it is possible that the love of God can flow through generics as God has His people there also. > Gifts of the Love of God that work through drugs, I never denied it, just that it is very very inefficient, a large drain on resources, and unneeded. There is also a factor of quality of an individual life, which has to be factored in. Once again, what particular science or sciences have you trained in? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/289 "2010-07-06T01:13:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once again, what particular science or sciences have you trained in? Mad? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/290 "2010-07-06T08:38:32Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I’ll call your oxymoron and raise a tautology. So if I understand you, you accept that life evolved from simpler things, but you think the earliest examples of life were designed by God because they “look like they were designed”. What early example of life looks designed to you? The simplest known forms of life looks designed to me. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/291 "2010-07-06T08:40:31Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > You’re simply failing to apply the same logic used to infer that we have a designer to the designer itself. I can directly observe the designed entities that I am claiming look designed. I can _not_ directly observe the entity I believe designed them, hence, can draw no such inferences. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/292 "2010-07-06T09:14:45Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I can directly observe the designed entities that I am claiming look designed. > > I can _not_ directly observe the entity I believe designed them, hence, can draw no such inferences. Sure you can. Your definition of your deity is intentionally minimalistic, but you’re still left with some characteristics that can’t be avoided because they are integral to your arguments. The deity exists. It is sentient, powerful and it is able to design things. Single celled organisms are not sentient or powerful, nor are they capable of designing things, ergo your deity is more complex and structured than “simple life”, and if “simple life” looks designed to you then by implication so must your deity. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/293 "2010-07-06T09:55:16Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > The simplest known forms of life looks designed to me. If you mean designed to adapt into more complex structures over millions of years, I’d agree with you to some extent, but it’s still a far cry from designing a creature in God’s image, and that that creature is homo sapien. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/294 "2010-07-06T12:17:36Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Sure you can. Your definition of your deity is intentionally minimalistic, but you’re still left with some characteristics that can’t be avoided because they are integral to your arguments. > > The deity exists. It is sentient, powerful and it is able to design things. Single celled organisms are not sentient or powerful, nor are they capable of designing things, ergo your deity is more complex and structured than “simple life”, and if “simple life” looks designed to you then by implication so must your deity. Again, if you’re going to want me to accept a universe-designing deity is “complex”, you’re going to have to describe some of the traits/qualities it possesses that makes it complex. I will happily describe some of the complexity possessed by a single-cell organism in exchange. But I think you’re bluffing, so, “you first”. To put it another way, I will not just simply take it on _faith_ that you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/295 "2010-07-06T12:18:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If you mean designed to adapt into more complex structures over millions of years, I’d agree with you to some extent, but it’s still a far cry from designing a creature in God’s image, and that that creature is homo sapien. **ivan** , you appear to be shooting up the wrong path. I don’t defend any positions relating to God designing stuff “in his own image”. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/296 "2010-07-06T12:34:26Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Again, if you’re going to want me to accept a universe-designing deity is “complex”, you’re going to have to describe some of the traits/qualities it possesses that makes it complex. I will happily describe some of the complexity possessed by a single-cell organism in exchange. But I think you’re bluffing, so, “you first”. > > To put it another way, I will not just simply take it on _faith_ that you are correct. Ok… doesn’t seem very hard. The most easiest trait/quality to pick out would probably be sentience. In order to design something it would _have_ to be sentient, by pure definition, and I think it goes without saying that sentience requires a very high level of complexity. That comes straight off your stated premise, so I don’t have to observe anything to describe it. If you can describe anything in a single-cell organism that has the level of design comparable to even the barest essentials of sentient life I will be very impressed. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/297 "2010-07-06T12:59:03Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Ok… doesn’t seem very hard. > > The most easiest trait/quality to pick out would probably be sentience. In order to design something it would _have_ to be sentient, by pure definition, and I think it goes without saying that sentience requires a very high level of complexity. If we’re talking inside the universe, sure. Just to form an _idea_ requires a freakin’ myriad of chemical reactions to take place properly and in the correct order, as well as traverse any required spatial distance that the firing neurons of the mind help facilitate. So yep, that’s damn complex, and we’re only scratching the surface. As for entities that aren’t restricted by such material and spatial limitations, I have no idea what kind of complexity sentience requires. Perhaps you can enlighten us? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/298 "2010-07-06T13:12:33Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > As for entities that aren’t restricted by such material and spatial limitations, I have no idea what kind of complexity sentience requires. At least as complex as us, naturally; we are obviously the bottom rung when it comes to sentience. And you can forget any nonsense about not being “restricted by such material and spatial limitations”; without some sort of restrictions, some sort of rules it cant have any structure at all. Sentience requires an underlying substrate. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/299 "2010-07-06T13:25:06Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > If we’re talking inside the universe, sure. Just to form an _idea_ requires a freakin’ myriad of chemical reactions to take place properly and in the correct order, as well as traverse any required spatial distance that the firing neurons of the mind help facilitate. So yep, that’s damn complex, and we’re only scratching the surface. > > As for entities that aren’t restricted by such material and spatial limitations, I have no idea what kind of complexity sentience requires. Perhaps you can enlighten us? Well uh, kind of winging it here, but I feel pretty confident to say that in order to create our universe, it has to be on some level capable of interacting with it. No matter how fancy and mysterious it’s powers are it can’t get past a straight up contradiction. I think from that I can assume it would be subject to at least _some_ kind of material limitations. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/300 "2010-07-06T13:29:35Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > **ivan** , you appear to be shooting up the wrong path. I don’t defend any positions relating to God designing stuff “in his own image”. Not “shooting up the wrong path”, more like “cutting you off at the pass”. Otherwise, what kind of second-rate God would it be, if it could create a universe from nothing, but couldn’t fashion a mere human being without billions of alterations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=16)