# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/321 "2010-07-07T14:59:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How can anything change something else, and not be changed itself? Love changes people all the time, without actually changing itself. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/322 "2010-07-07T15:00:37Z")
“Clever wordplay”? It’s basic mathematics, you can’t go rejecting basic mathematics just because you don’t think it sounds logical. Argh! If anyone needs me I’ll be in the angry dome. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/323 "2010-07-07T15:03:47Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Love changes people all the time, without actually changing itself. Is your immortal entity an emotion? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/324 "2010-07-07T15:17:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is your immortal entity an emotion? Oh, so emotions don’t count? Only examples of timeless, unchanging creator deities that are directly observable inside the universe would be acceptable to you then, I guess :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/325 "2010-07-07T15:23:08Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Oh, so emotions don’t count? > > Only examples of timeless, unchanging creator deities that are directly observable inside the universe would be acceptable to you then, I guess :rolleyes: Certainly more acceptable than words redefined to suit your metaphysical needs and an ignorance of basic mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/326 "2010-07-07T15:24:16Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Love changes people all the time, without actually changing itself. ? Love comes from one person to another, and both are certainly changed by the experience. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/327 "2010-07-07T15:27:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Certainly more acceptable than words redefined to suit your metaphysical needs and an ignorance of basic mathematics. Sorry, I just assumed that by asking a question, you wanted an answer. If “_How can anything change something else, and not be changed itself?_” was not your intended question, then please refine it, and ask it again. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/328 "2010-07-07T15:28:54Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > ? Love comes from one person to another, and both are certainly changed by the experience. So we’re in agreement that love can change things. ? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/329 "2010-07-07T15:30:25Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Sorry, I just assumed that by asking a question, you wanted an answer. If “_How can anything change something else, and not be changed itself?_” was not your intended question, then please refine it, and ask it again. The question doesn’t need to be refined. your “clever” word-play answer does, however. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/330 "2010-07-07T15:34:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what did this timeless entity do before she/he/it decided to create the universe? > Where did she/he/it acquire the knowledge to do this? > _Why do you consider a timeless entity with infinite intelligence more probable than an infinite universe that constantly creates and destroys itself, considering that there is no evidence(outside of your own need to see patterns where none might exist) for such an entity?_ As a comic book fan, you should know better than this. A “timeless entity” (which is in fact what “eternal” means, not a synonym for “perpetual” but “not participating in the flow of time, so that all times are at once present for it”) would have no “before” – indeed, if time and space are the metric produced by the existence of matter and energy, then there would be no “before creation” time period, any more than there is a real physical temperature below absolute zero. It can be conceptualized by extending a scale, but has no physical referent. It would be like asking, “What is the precise physical location of ‘Up’?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/331 "2010-07-07T15:41:03Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > As a comic book fan, you should know better than this. A “timeless entity” (which is in fact what “eternal” means, not a synonym for “perpetual” but “not participating in the flow of time, so that all times are at once present for it”) would have no “before” – indeed, if time and space are the metric produced by the existence of matter and energy, then there would be no “before creation” time period, any more than there is a real physical temperature below absolute zero. It can be conceptualized by extending a scale, but has no physical referent. It would be like asking, “What is the precise physical location of ‘Up’?” As a stable comic book fan, I know the difference between fantasy and reality. The question still has to be answered as to the state of this “timeless entity” before he finally decided to push _CREATE_ button. _Stipulating that this entity exists_, either she/he/it was created along with the universe, or she/he/it existed _before_ the universe was created. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/332 "2010-07-07T15:46:25Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > So we’re in agreement that love can change things. > > ? Define “things” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/333 "2010-07-07T15:50:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As a stable comic book fan, I know the difference between fantasy and reality. Cite? I am thinking particularly in light of your assertion of something like this - > [@](#): > > an infinite universe that constantly creates and destroys itself… How can something that doesn’t exist act? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/334 "2010-07-07T15:54:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Cite? > > I am thinking particularly in light of your assertion of something like this - How can something that doesn’t exist act? You mean something immaterial? Good question-but only if you are willing to apply the same question to _all_ premises, both scientific and metaphysical. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/335 "2010-07-07T15:56:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How can something that doesn’t exist act? Plenty of people think God does all sorts of stuff. [/zing] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/336 "2010-07-07T16:00:31Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Plenty of people think God does all sorts of stuff. [/zing] Not directly, though. It’s more of a case of things happen due to the influence of other things, and God gets the credit because he somehow caused it to happen in some undetectable way. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/337 "2010-07-07T16:03:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean something immaterial? No, I mean the material universe. > [@](#): > > Good question-but only if you are willing to apply the same question to _all_ premises, both scientific and metaphysical. Sure thing. So let’s apply it first to your assertion. Is it possible for something that does not exist to act? If your answer is Yes, then please cite the evidence of all the things that don’t exist that cause things to happen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/338 "2010-07-07T16:10:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I mean the material universe. > Sure thing. > > So let’s apply it first to your assertion. Is it possible for something that does not exist to act? If your answer is Yes, then please cite the evidence of all the things that don’t exist that cause things to happen. Since I never asserted that in the first place, I don’t have to defend it. By the phrase “universe creating and destroying itself” I of course am referring to the theory that the universe will eventually collapse into an unstable ball of energy, then explode outward to start all over again. Better minds than mine can explain it in better detail. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/339 "2010-07-07T18:31:31Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Wow! No structure, no restrictions, no rules?! You mean no.. _complexity_? Such entities sound _far_ less complex than any sentient entity I’ve encountered! Which is why no such entity is possible. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > It certainly appears that way inside the universe, but if you’re applying this claim to any sentience whatsoever, inside the universe or otherwise, then, “cite please”. It has nothing to do with “this universe”; sentience is a structure, about a particular kind of complex information processing. Without some sort of underlying rules to stabilize and order the process, and a substrate for the process to be embedded in, no such phenomena is possible. Even if there was such a thing as a god, the universe or at least _A_ universe would have to come first, in order for the god to have a place and substrate to exist in. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Love changes people all the time, without actually changing itself. Love is a brain state, and material as a rock. And yes it is changed, it can only influence behavior at all because it is a collection of brain cells firing in a particular pattern. It IS change. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/340 "2010-07-07T18:38:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Love is a brain state, and material as a rock. And yes it is changed, it can only influence behavior at all because it is a collection of brain cells firing in a particular pattern. It IS change. What he said. Love isn’t something that makes changes-it is a name given to the change itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=18)