# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/361 "2010-07-09T15:20:10Z")
Will you accept that no sentient entity cause the universe to come in to existence? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/362 "2010-07-09T15:20:21Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I’ve actually stated, _ad nauseum_, that I do not know how things work outside the universe, I merely point out the obvious folly of thinking that it must work the same as existing in three dimensional space. Yet right here on the forum we have people arguing things like “_you can not have existence without space!_” like they have some special information about existence that the rest of us don’t have. > > I merely allow for the possibility of existence outside of space/time. I certainly don’t claim to know whether such an existence is possible, _unlike others on the forum_. > > Those who are claiming to know are providing no evidence - they are the ones relying on assertion. “Living outside the universe”, “no space”, “different rules in no space”, “immaterial entities living in no space(?!?)”, “immaterial entities effecting material objects”-these are all assertions _you_ have made in this thread. All we are doing is questioning _your_ improbable assertions, and when we do so you provide as an answer yet another improbable assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/363 "2010-07-09T15:21:50Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I “dismiss” (for want of a better word) that **nothing** caused the universe to come in to existence. Call me crazy! Can you accept that the universe might always have existed, in some form or another? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/364 "2010-07-09T15:26:55Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Will you accept that no sentient entity cause the universe to come in to existence? Have you followed the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/365 "2010-07-09T15:28:14Z")
God help me I’ve tried. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/366 "2010-07-09T15:33:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Living outside the universe”, “no space”, “different rules in no space”, “immaterial entities living in no space(?!?)”, “immaterial entities effecting material objects”-these are all assertions _you_ have made in this thread. All we are doing is questioning _your_ improbable assertions, and when we do so you provide as an answer yet another improbable assertion. That’s cheeky, **Czarcasm**. I have merely explained why I believe it’s possible that a timeless, immaterial entity designed and created the universe. I pointed out back in my first post that I am not completely convinced, but merely inclined to believe. However, you, among others, have _asserted that what I propose is impossible_. Here is what you wrote just a few posts back: “_By the way, even if your impossible entity existed_”.. my entity is impossible? Please prove that, **Czarcasm** , or else you are relying on the same baseless assertions that you are accusing me of making. And if the best you’ve got is pointing out (again) that inside the universe, such things aren’t possible, instead spend your time figuring out the glaring flaw in that logic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/367 "2010-07-09T15:42:00Z")
What I wrote in post #362 wasn’t “cheeky”, it was an accurate description of what you have asserted in this thread. I can show you exactly where you made these assertions if you wish. And yet again, we have the religionist’s Double Standard of Evidence. You are satisfied with suppositions and unfounded assertions when it comes to the metaphysical, but you demand, not evidence, but _proof_ that none of your unsupported assertions are true. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/368 "2010-07-09T15:45:07Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > That’s cheeky, **Czarcasm**. > > I have merely explained why I believe it’s possible that a timeless, immaterial entity designed and created the universe. I pointed out back in my first post that I am not completely convinced, but merely inclined to believe. And now you need to answer from whence this timeless immaterial entity came from. If you aren’t comfortable with the universe coming from nothing, why are you comfortable with a creator who comes from nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/369 "2010-07-09T15:48:24Z")
[Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12661206&postcount=347) is _evidence_ that your immaterial entity cannot effect material objects. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12665184&postcount=355) is the reason your immaterial entity stiil cannot effect material objects even if she/he/it lived in Magicland…oops, I mean “No Space”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/370 "2010-07-09T16:03:36Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > And now you need to answer from whence this timeless immaterial entity came from. If you aren’t comfortable with the universe coming from nothing, why are you comfortable with a creator who comes from nothing? Because He’s timeless, immaterial, and lives in a place that isn’t a place because there’s no space there and He’s super smart and all powerful- neener, neener, neener. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/371 "2010-07-11T12:11:10Z")
It seems to me, that any believer can be sure of their beliefs, it is just beliefs, and not dealing with facts. I once heard a Rabbi explain it that way one day on TV,he said" That is what faith is all about…belief". ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/372 "2010-07-11T14:04:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It seems to me, that any believer can be sure of their beliefs, it is just beliefs, and not dealing with facts. I once heard a Rabbi explain it that way one day on TV,he said" That is what faith is all about…belief". And I have no problem with this(as long as they keep their beliefs personal, and not try to make them mandatory for others). But when try to assert that, using misapplied terms and bogus definitions, that science and logic support their beliefs, I feel a need to question. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/373 "2010-07-11T16:04:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12661206&postcount=347) is _evidence_ that your immaterial entity cannot effect material objects. > [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12665184&postcount=355) is the reason your immaterial entity stiil cannot effect material objects even if she/he/it lived in Magicland…oops, I mean “No Space”. Let’s take a look at these links, shall we? > [@](#): > > If an entity is immaterial, it cannot touch. > If an entity is immaterial, it cannot speak. > If an entity is immaterial, it cannot see. > If an entity is immaterial, it has no place to store thoughts, If you can’t see these statements for the unbacked assertions that they are, then it is fruitless even attempting to continue this conversation. > [@](#): > > By the way, even if your impossible entity existed, and even if it resided in a nonsensical “no space”, and even if the rules of this “no space” allowed immaterial entities to effect material objects, the instant your immaterial entity stepped out of “no space” into the real universe she/he/it would again be bound by the rules of the real universe-no body, no touchy. Not sure why you’re presuming the entity I am proposing at any point has “stepped in” to the universe. Possibly because otherwise, you don’t have an argument. Possibly because unbacked assertions are the way that you roll here in GD. Whatever your motive, _it sure wasn’t anything I have ever claimed_. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/374 "2010-07-11T16:07:04Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > And now you need to answer from whence this timeless immaterial entity came from. If you aren’t comfortable with the universe coming from nothing, why are you comfortable with a creator who comes from nothing? In order for a timeless entity to come in to existence, it needs to, at some point, _not exist_. Given that the deity I believe in did not, at any point, not exist, I have no charge left to answer from your post. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/375 "2010-07-11T16:16:37Z")
Czarcasm, I am tired of having to respond to your endless unbacked assertions. If you think existence is impossible without having space, time and matter, then please show some evidence. To avoid wasting more time, understand that unsupported assertions such as “existence inside three dimensional space/time is the only possible form of existence, and I know this for a fact so don’t question me” will not be accepted. Arguing whether existence outside of space/time is possible on the grounds that you’ve only ever witnessed and understood existence from within space/time is likewise just plain silly, and that kind of “reasoning” is best left for your debates with young earth creationists or those who reject evolution, or believe the Bible is literally true. So _ **drumroll** _… will Czarcasm produce some evidence that existence outside of space/time is not possible? Or will he just baselessly reassert, _again_, that such existence is not possible, _and to hell with presenting any evidence to back up this claim!_ Tune in soon to find out! ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/376 "2010-07-11T16:30:19Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > In order for a timeless entity to come in to existence, it needs to, at some point, _not exist_. > > Given that the deity I believe in did not, at any point, not exist, I have no charge left to answer from your post. Could there be any finer example of cognitive dissonance in only two sentences? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/377 "2010-07-11T19:36:03Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > Could there be any finer example of cognitive dissonance in only two sentences? I don’t understand. What are the two contradictory ideas that you’re seeing? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/378 "2010-07-11T19:52:07Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Czarcasm, I am tired of having to respond to your endless unbacked assertions. > > If you think existence is impossible without having space, time and matter, then please show some evidence. If you ( **Czarcasm** , or anyone else) do indeed think that existence—or at least the kind of existence that allows an entity to effect/affect material things—is impossible without having space, time, and matter, I _may_ be able to disprove this by offering, as a counterexample, the relationship of an author to his or her literary creations. From the perspective of Middle Earth, for example, J.R.R. Tolkien is “immaterial.” Tolkien does not exist at any particular point of Middle Earth space or time. But you wouldn’t say that Tolkien had no effect on Middle Earth. I’m not sure how good a counterexample this is. You may object that, **really** , it’s Middle Earth that’s immaterial, not Tolkien. But whether or not my example holds up logically, it does, at least, help me break through a barrier against imagining how an entity outside the material world could have an effect on it. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/379 "2010-07-11T21:12:16Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > In order for a timeless entity to come in to existence, it needs to, at some point, _not exist_. > > Given that the deity I believe in did not, at any point, not exist, I have no charge left to answer from your post. It seems to me like what you’re doing is [affirming the consequent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent). > [@](#): > > Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form: > > 1. If P, then Q. > 2. Q. > 3. Therefore, P. > > [SNIP] > > One way to demonstrate the invalidity of this argument form is with a counterexample with true premises but an obviously false conclusion. For example: > > ``` > If Bill Gates owns Fort Knox, then he is rich. > Bill Gates is rich. > Therefore, Bill Gates owns Fort Knox. > > ``` > > Owning Fort Knox is not the only way to be rich. There are any number of other ways to be rich. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/380 "2010-07-11T21:24:50Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It seems to me like what you’re doing is [affirming the consequent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent). But **Kelly** ’s second sentence that you quoted isn’t Q; it’s ~Q. (And _modus tollens_ is a perfectly valid form of argument.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=20)