# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/421 "2010-07-13T20:13:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Do we need to measure them? We don’t. I completely agree that anytime a believer decides to witness and/or insist their beliefs are the right ones or the best ones or whatever, it’s fine to challange them. I’d be first in line. > > If thier beliefs are thier own, about something we really don’t know for sure anyway, and they are not trying to push them on you, then return the favor. And what if they misuse or invent scientific terminology to support their beliefs? Are we just supposed to go along because it’s just their opinion as to what those terms mean? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/422 "2010-07-13T20:18:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If you just say it is so because you believe it, you are playing their game. Say a believer in the mind’s existence without a body and a non-believer are trying to convince someone who has no belief in this area. > > The non-believer can say that a hypothesis of mind tied to a brain can be tested by predicting the impact of injury and manipulation of the brain to the mind, and by observing the response of the brain to certain stimuli and even thoughts. We can change the mind by changing the brain. While this doesn’t prove the nonexistence of an afterlife, it certainly suggests it, since it would be easy to falsify the connection. > > What does the believer say? He can appeal to literature and religion, and appeal to our frustration at being mortal. He can appeal to anecdote and legend. But there are plenty of ways of verifying his belief - real ghosts, mediums actually contacting the dead, etc. Our believer must appeal to either fakery or invent excuses - the dead don’t come at our call, they are not allowed to talk to us, or whatever. Hard to believe since there are plenty of dead non-believers who you’d think would want to set the record straight, most notably Houdini. > > So, I don’t think the strengths of the arguments are equal, and our person with no preconceived beliefs is most likely to fall into the non-believer camp. As I said, it’s not about who has the better belief. It’s about allowing people to choose their own path , especially in those areas where we don’t have certainty. It’s really not nessecary for us to know if there is an afterlife or not. We can cross that bridge , or not , when we come to it. I’m talking about basic god belief or the belief that there is or may be something more than this life. We don’t know and aren’t likley to know soon. {at least we hope:)} So if someone believes and doesn’t push it, leave em be. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/423 "2010-07-13T20:22:08Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It has nothing to do with whether you or anyone thinks they are equal or not. It’s not a matter of who has the better belief. What has nothing to do with it and what’s not a matter of who has the better belief? You claimed someone was trying to convince believers we couldn’t live without a body or brain just by saying “I believe it is so.” Bullshit. Rationalists make claims based on evidence and we refuse to belief incredible beliefs based on a lack of it. Claiming we try to convince anyone of anything just by saying “I believe it is so” was a lame attempt at equating our rational beliefs with your irrational ones. > [@](#): > > It’s accepting and recognizing the limits of knowledge and allowing people the basic respect of forming their own belief system without having to justify it. if you want believers to not try to force thier beliefs on you then allow the believers who don’t do that to go in peace to choose thier own path. Simple huh? Why are you telling me this? Where have I said anything about believers having to justify their beliefs to me? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/424 "2010-07-13T20:28:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what if they misuse or invent scientific terminology to support their beliefs? Are we just supposed to go along because it’s just their opinion as to what those terms mean? absolutely not. Purposely spreading falsehoods to support religious tradition deserves to be challanged. It’s almost an obligation. I’m referring more to polite society and just letting someone have their belief if they aren’t being pushy. If they choose to have a conversation then being frank is dandy. The post I responded to said > [@](#): > > in the Real World, “I believe it is so.” doesn’t cut it I completely agree and I believe that can cut both ways. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/425 "2010-07-13T20:31:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What has nothing to do with it and what’s not a matter of who has the better belief? > You claimed someone was trying to convince believers we couldn’t live without a body or brain just by saying “I believe it is so.” Bullshit. Rationalists make claims based on evidence and we refuse to belief incredible beliefs based on a lack of it. Claiming we try to convince anyone of anything just by saying “I believe it is so” was a lame attempt at equating our rational beliefs with your irrational ones. > Why are you telling me this? Where have I said anything about believers having to justify their beliefs to me? You jumped into a conversation I was having with someone else. I didn’t make any claims about you or anything else. I merely commented on a post. I’m not having a conversation about claims I never made. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/426 "2010-07-13T20:36:50Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You jumped into a conversation I was having with someone else. I didn’t make any claims about you or anything else. I merely commented on a post. I’m not having a conversation about claims I never made. That’s how message boards work; people generally jump in to conversations and join in. :rolleyes: Claims don’t have to be about me to comment. I never said you made a claim that you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/427 "2010-07-13T20:45:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yes, we do need to measure them. It’s the scientific and rational way. Inventing something called a quark to explain the substance of an atom is far more productive than assuming an entity called god that is responsible for everything since time began. I’m not saying believers shoould be allowed to ignore science. I’m saying in areas where we don’t and can’t currently know with certainty we can have different beliefs and no harm done. A believer holds a basic god belief and the idea that our souls or something lives on after physical death. If they can accept that " I believe that it is so" doesn’t cut it and don’t try to push their personal beliefs on anyone then those who hold a different belief should be able to recognize that their alternative “I believe it is so” or “I believe thier belief isn’t so” also doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/428 "2010-07-13T20:49:29Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > That’s how message boards work; people generally jump in to conversations and join in. :rolleyes: Claims don’t have to be about me to comment. I never said you made a claim that you didn’t. You didn’t? read your post again. Pay close attention to the part right after YOU CLAIMED. It’s fine if you want to jump in but you misinterpreted my post and then responded as if your misunderstanding was correct. Turns out it wasn’t. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/429 "2010-07-13T20:51:51Z")
I don’t have to read my post again. If you want to point out where I made an untrue claim about you, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/430 "2010-07-13T20:57:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > " I believe that it is so" doesn’t cut it and don’t try to push their personal beliefs on anyone then those who hold a different belief should be able to recognize that their alternative “I believe it is so” or “I believe thier belief isn’t so” also doesn’t cut it. But rationalists and most atheists generally don’t do that. We say that you are making the incredible claim and the burden of proof is on you. We are without belief in incredible claims with insufficient evidence. That does cut it. Making incredible claims about an afterlife doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/431 "2010-07-13T21:09:59Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I don’t have to read my post again. If you want to point out where I made an untrue claim about you, go ahead. I already did. I didn’t claim anything yet you said I did. That’s makes you incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/432 "2010-07-13T21:13:31Z")
You said: \*That’s true. And if you insist the real world begins and ends with what we see around us and we cease to exist when our physical bodies die, that’s fine as a belief. When you try to convince a believer it’s true for them too you’re going to have problems because as you said “I believe it is so” won’t convince them. \* I said: _You claimed someone was trying to convince believers we couldn’t live without a body or brain just by saying "I believe it is so._ How am I incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/433 "2010-07-13T21:35:34Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > But rationalists and most atheists generally don’t do that. We say that you are making the incredible claim and the burden of proof is on you. We are without belief in incredible claims with insufficient evidence. That does cut it. Making incredible claims about an afterlife doesn’t. I don’t disagree. I said in my [first post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12672792&postcount=383) that believers can’t be, and shoudln’t claim to be sure of their beliefs. For that reason they shouldn’t even bother trying to prove anything to anyone. They have no hard evidence and that’s a fact. What they have is a right to hold thier own belief system and should be accountable for thier actions good bad or in between. If I’m not asking anyone to buy into my belief system then I also don’t have to defend it. I just have to be responsible for it in how it’s refelcted in my actions. Speaking specifically of basic god belief or the belief in souls or something like it, if I choose to believe in that I recognize I have no hard evidence and that “I believe it is so” doesn’t cut it, so I won’t try to convince anyone. I also recognize that atheists, those who don’t hold spiritual beliefs , don’t believe in souls or an afterlife don’t really know either. That’s thier version of “I believe it is so” You can successfully argue that rationalists have some evidence and believers don’t. Great, so what? Bonus points for you. If thier reasons for believeing are more emotional while yours are more practical but still unconvincing and inconclusive, then it still boils down to both sides having their “I believe it is so” which both sides are allowed to have. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/434 "2010-07-13T21:38:21Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > You said: > > \*That’s true. And if you insist the real world begins and ends with what we see around us and we cease to exist when our physical bodies die, that’s fine as a belief. When you try to convince a believer it’s true for them too you’re going to have problems because as you said “I believe it is so” won’t convince them. \* > > I said: > > _You claimed someone was trying to convince believers we couldn’t live without a body or brain just by saying "I believe it is so._ > > How am I incorrect? I see the misunderstanding. I wasn’t directing it at or accusing anyone in particular and should have probably written “If you try to convince etc” rather than" When" My bad for inaccurate language. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/435 "2010-07-13T21:41:44Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > But rationalists and most atheists generally don’t do that. We say that you are making the incredible claim and the burden of proof is on you. We are without belief in incredible claims with insufficient evidence. That does cut it. Making incredible claims about an afterlife doesn’t. btw, It’s true that believers are far more guilty of being pushy about their beliefs than non believers by a couple of light years. I just happen to hang out on the SDMB where there is a much higher ratio of pushy non believers than any place else in the world. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/436 "2010-07-13T21:45:25Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > btw, It’s true that believers are far more guilty of being pushy about their beliefs than non believers by a couple of light years. > > I just happen to hang out on the SDMB where there is a much higher ratio of pushy non believers than any place else in the world. 🙂 I think that is a misperception on your part, because in the outside world you don’t find people as willing to push _back_ at religion. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/437 "2010-07-13T21:48:58Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I also recognize that atheists, those who don’t hold spiritual beliefs , don’t believe in souls or an afterlife don’t really know either. That’s thier version of “I believe it is so” No, it’s not. No one can _know_ anything. You’re attempting to make our rational beliefs and lack of belief based on lack of evidence seem equal to your irrational belief by saying we “don’t really know either.” > [@](#): > > You can successfully argue that rationalists have some evidence and believers don’t. Great, so what? So it’s the point of this thread. > [@](#): > > If thier reasons for believeing are more emotional while yours are more practical but still unconvincing and inconclusive, then it still boils down to both sides having their “I believe it is so” which both sides are allowed to have. You’re at it again. Everything is inconclusive. Which of our beliefs or non-beliefs are unconvincing? Of course both sides are allowed to have beliefs. You keep making it sound like someone in this thread is saying believers don’t or shouldn’t have a right to believe. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/438 "2010-07-13T21:54:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I see the misunderstanding. I wasn’t directing it at or accusing anyone in particular and should have probably written “If you try to convince etc” rather than" When" > > My bad for inaccurate language. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t directed at someone in particular. You were inferring that we (or some) try to convince others of rational beliefs or rational reasons for not believing by saying “I believe it is so.” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/439 "2010-07-13T21:58:51Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t directed at someone in particular. You were inferring that we (or some) try to convince others of rational beliefs or rational reasons for not believing by saying “I believe it is so.” No I wasn’t. I was merely pointing out that non believers had their own version of “I believe it is so” and that there are real limits to what your evidence indicates. Believers should not be so sure and should recognize they don’t really know. Same goes for non believers. I guess you were wrong after all. Shoulda taken the out when ya had it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/440 "2010-07-13T22:10:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No I wasn’t. I was merely pointing out that non believers had their own version of “I believe it is so” and that there are real limits to what your evidence indicates. No, you said that we try to convince just by saying “I believe it is so.” That’s bullshit. You weren’t _merely_ doing anything. You have been consistently trying to put rational beliefs and rational non-beliefs on the same level with irrational ones. > [@](#): > > I guess you were wrong after all. Shoulda taken the out when ya had it. I wasn’t wrong and I don’t take outs. Are you going to tell me which of our beliefs or non-beliefs are unconvincing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=23)