# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/501 "2010-07-15T15:02:36Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I don’t understand how a large hadron collider works, therefore, no one designed it. > > Uhm.. > Let me think about this… > No. That doesn’t work. Neither does your argument. If you don’t know how “a large hadron collider” works \*you either say “I don’t know how it works” or you try to find out how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/502 "2010-07-15T15:03:35Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > So should I conclude no one designed the large hadron collider? I have no clue how it works. Therefore my conclusion, according to you, should be.. ? You should conclude that this particular argument is not strong enough to draw a conclusion from. You should then look for further evidence of the hadron collider not being built, which wouldn’t be very hard to find if it were the case. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/503 "2010-07-15T15:03:44Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Are you trolling? Save this kind of comment for the Pit if you have to say it it all. Don’t accuse other posters of trolling in Great Debates. If you think someone _is_ trolling then please report the post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/504 "2010-07-15T15:05:30Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Solid conclusions, sure. But if something looks designed to me, that will incline me to believe in a designer. So once you make your initial assertion based on ignorance of the subject, you just quit looking any deeper? Sounds like willful ignorance to me. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/505 "2010-07-15T15:06:27Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > What you refer to as “evidence” is simply a gap in our understanding about how a process works. And I say it isn’t. I say that studying the atom reveals one of the most beautifully elegant structures with seemingly limitless functionality that some would argue you’ll ever see. Given that all of my life experience has taught me that you can’t produce things 1/1000th as elegant and functional as an atom without a designer and creator, the existence of the designer and creator becomes inferred. And believing in things based on inference is nothing to discard, unless you discard the existence of dark matter and dark energy. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/506 "2010-07-15T15:08:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Neither does your argument. If you don’t know how “a large hadron collider” works \*you either say “I don’t know how it works” or you try to find out how it works. In order to determine if the large hadron collider was designed, I should begin by learning how it works? Hint: There’s _far_ quicker methods at my disposal than that. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/507 "2010-07-15T15:09:28Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > “I don’t know how the Large Hadron Collider came to be.” “And I have no evidence it was designed”, would also be a logical conclusion to draw, according to you? ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/508 "2010-07-15T15:09:35Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > And I say it isn’t. I say that studying the atom reveals one of the most beautifully elegant structures with seemingly limitless functionality that some would argue you’ll ever see. Given that all of my life experience has taught me that you can’t produce things 1/1000th as elegant and functional as an atom without a designer and creator, the existence of the designer and creator becomes inferred. And believing in things based on inference is nothing to discard, unless you discard the existence of dark matter and dark energy. Oh yes, I was really hoping you’d bring up Dark Matter and Dark Energy! ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/509 "2010-07-15T15:10:37Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > “And I have no evidence it was designed”, would also be a logical conclusion to draw, according to you? Why do you always feel the need to draw a conclusion? Are you that uncomfortable with “I don’t know”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/510 "2010-07-15T15:11:01Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > In order to determine if the large hadron collider was designed, I should begin by learning how it works? > > Hint: There’s _far_ quicker methods at my disposal than that. Apparently “guessing” is one of your methods, along with “jumping to conclusions”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/511 "2010-07-15T15:11:56Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Given that all of my life experience has taught me that you can’t produce things 1/1000th as elegant and functional as an atom without a designer and creator, the existence of the designer and creator becomes inferred. And believing in things based on inference is nothing to discard, unless you discard the existence of dark matter and dark energy. Hasn’t that same life experience taught you that designers have a beginning, need space to reside in, time to make things and that complex things haven’t always existed but come about through a gradual process? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/512 "2010-07-15T15:12:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So once you make your initial assertion based on ignorance of the subject, you just quit looking any deeper? I am not ignorant about the elegance and structure of the atom. I’ve seen elegance and structure before, but never for anything that I know wasn’t designed. Inference should therefore lead me to think that the atom was probably… (_fill in the gap here)_. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/513 "2010-07-15T15:13:10Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I am not ignorant about the elegance and structure of the atom. I’ve seen elegance and structure before, but never for anything that I know wasn’t designed. You’ve admitted you believe in evolution right? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/514 "2010-07-15T15:13:28Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > Why do you always feel the need to draw a conclusion? Are you that uncomfortable with “I don’t know”? Very uncomfortable. But nor do I claim to “know” that the universe has a designer/creator. I simply find it more plausible than the universe not having one. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/515 "2010-07-15T15:14:16Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > “And I have no evidence it was designed”, would also be a logical conclusion to draw, according to you? Yes, with nothing but that tiny nugget of information (I don’t know how this thing works) to work with that would be the only reasonable conclusion. Of course you’d have no evidence to the contrary either. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/516 "2010-07-15T15:14:31Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I am not ignorant about the elegance and structure of the atom. I’ve seen elegance and structure before, but never for anything that I know wasn’t designed. Inference should therefore lead me to think that the atom was probably… (_fill in the gap here)_. Which processes have you observed during your “life experience” that included a designer that had no space and time in which to cause them to be? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/517 "2010-07-15T15:14:45Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > You’ve admitted you believe in evolution right? I believe that genetic mutations can sometimes produce traits that give the possessors of those traits a survival advantage over those members of the same species that don’t possess them, and that these traits can be inheritable, yes. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/518 "2010-07-15T15:15:52Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Very uncomfortable. That explains a lot. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/519 "2010-07-15T15:16:28Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > Which processes have you observed during your “life experience” that included a designer that had no space and time in which to cause them to be? None. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/520 "2010-07-15T15:16:54Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I believe that genetic mutations can sometimes produce traits that give the possessors of those traits a survival advantage over those members of the same species that don’t possess them, and that these traits can be inheritable, yes. Well then, if this isn’t elegant and functional: [![](http://www.alldivamedia.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/shakira.jpg) ](http://www.alldivamedia.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/shakira.jpg) I don’t know what is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=27)