# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/41 "2010-06-24T13:35:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Really?_ > Can you show us an example where we ever came across evidence that God did something that he ought not do, causing a religion to change it’s view on God? The Incarnation, the Crucifixion & Resurrection of Christ- which caused some hardcore monotheistic Jews and polytheistic Gentiles to develop Christian doctrine out of their respective Judaism & paganisms. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/42 "2010-06-24T14:30:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sure. > > [Acts 10.](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10&version=NIV) The relevant passage is verses 28-29 - > > Evolution too, of course, but I would have thought that was too obvious to mention. > > Regards, > Shodan I believe i asked for evidence, not a new author’s take on someone else’s story. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/43 "2010-06-24T14:32:05Z")
In other words, can you show direct evidence of God doing anything at all, let alone doing something unexpected? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/44 "2010-06-24T14:40:08Z")
Certainly, God allows innocent children to die. This is something we would not expect a just God to do. Faced with this plain fact, we have had to noodle over our thoughts on the nature of God, justice and life. We have adopted our beliefs to meet the observation. When we enter into higher-end astrophysics, and our sums do not add up, we decide there is stuff we cannot see that makes the sums even. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/45 "2010-06-24T14:49:54Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Certainly, God allows innocent children to die. This is something we would not expect a just God to do. We have an equal amount of “evidence” that it is Odin that is allowing innocent children to die. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > When we enter into higher-end astrophysics, and our sums do not add up, we decide there is stuff we cannot see that makes the sums even. When it comes to gods, blind supposition counts as evidence. When it comes to science, if all the hard evidence that we have doesn’t supply all the answers at this time, it’s called “guessing”. [My Name]Sounds fair to me.[/My Name] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/46 "2010-06-24T15:08:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I believe i asked for evidence, not a new author’s take on someone else’s story. My bad for assuming you were posting in good faith. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/47 "2010-06-24T15:18:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > My bad for assuming you were posting in good faith. No, no-_My_ bad for assuming you understood what is generally meant by “evidence”. Regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Czarcasm ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/48 "2010-06-24T15:24:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We have an equal amount of “evidence” that it is Odin that is allowing innocent children to die.[/My Name] Ah, then we are simply discussing labels. Labels can be important, but it is good to see we are agreed on the thing itself, if that thing be bearded thunderer or Odin. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/49 "2010-06-24T15:28:56Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Ah, then we are simply discussing labels. Labels can be important, but it is good to see we are agreed on the thing itself, if that thing be bearded thunderer or Odin. Ah, the old “Deep down, they are all the same god” ploy. In that case, substitute [The Watcher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Watcher_%28comics%29) for Odin. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/50 "2010-06-24T15:32:55Z")
I don’t know if you are watching the BBC, but some of these “slow motion” action replays they are showing for close line calls are a complete waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/51 "2010-06-24T15:35:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I don’t know if you are watching the BBC, but some of these “slow motion” action replays they are showing for close line calls are a complete waste of time. The Non Sequitur Society-Because kangaroos jump. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/52 "2010-06-24T15:44:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Ah, the old “Deep down, they are all the same god” ploy. > In that case, substitute [The Watcher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Watcher_%28comics%29) for Odin. Or a giant masturbating zombie. Or a sentient lump of feces. Or nothing at all. Choosing a specific creator to believe in when there are literally infinite options and zero evidence that any of them are even real is amazing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/53 "2010-06-25T05:48:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Ah, the old “Deep down, they are all the same god” ploy. > In that case, substitute [The Watcher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Watcher_%28comics%29) for Odin. How can there be more than one God? If there were two gods, who created those? My statement is not a ploy. Your comment is not a rebuttal. Please try again. ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/54 "2010-06-25T08:58:17Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Certainly, God allows innocent children to die. Carcasm and I asked for evidence of him “doing something”, and you retort with an example of him doing nothing. In fact it’s worse than that, you don’t even have that much. If, say, it was a UN peacekeeping force that stood by and “allowed innocent children to die”, you could find physical evidence of this - records of the force’s deployments, perhaps TV footage, satellite imagery, etc. This is because there _was_ an actual entity “doing nothing”. Your example doesn’t have any evidence of any entity doing anything, let alone doing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/55 "2010-06-25T11:05:45Z")
I proceed from my belief there is a God (and a proton). When I observe behavior (by God or protons) that do not match my belief, I modify my theory so that my understanding of the nature of God (and protons) more nearly matches their true nature. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/56 "2010-06-25T11:09:29Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I see design in the Cosmos. Thus, I think there’s a Designer. It’s a greater leap for me to believe that Mind developed from Mindless Matter in Motion than to believe that a Mega-Mind crafted it all. > > I see the Jews survive & thrive in spite of every attempt to oppress & destroy them. Therefore, I believe that the Mega-Mind is also the LORD God of Israel. > > While the Saga of Israel is compelling, it has not made itself relevant to the nations of the world & has indeed kept mostly to itself out of sheer necessity to maintain its survival. However, in the Person of Jesus, His Gospel and His Church, I see The LORD With a Message and a Heritage for all humanity. > > If you don’t see any of those things, OK. There are people of other religions that thrive and survive not because of their religion but other means, the Aborigines of Australia, and some tribes in South Americia. I believe that Christianity has been a big help in keeping the Jewish prople from being destroyed because they believe the Jews will be converted at Jesus second comming, even though (according to the Bible) Jesus said he would return in His father’s glory with His angels before some the ones standing there would die. Muslims have also been (though not as long a time) struggling to keep their religion and them selves alive. It depends on the fervor of the people not the fact of a God supporting the killings unless the God they worship is a terrible being! ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/57 "2010-06-25T12:19:47Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I proceed from my belief there is a God (and a proton). When I observe behavior (by God or protons) that do not match my belief, I modify my theory so that my understanding of the nature of God (and protons) more nearly matches their true nature. But the OP asks _why you’re so sure_ of your beliefs, and I don’t think any of your answers, including this one, touch on this. That’s to say, rather than being “because of X, I believe in God”, your answers are of the form “because I believe in God, Y”. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/58 "2010-06-25T12:28:48Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There are people of other religions that thrive and survive not because of their religion but other means, the Aborigines of Australia, and some tribes in South Americia. I believe that Christianity has been a big help in keeping the Jewish prople from being destroyed because they believe the Jews will be converted at Jesus second comming, even though (according to the Bible) Jesus said he would return in His father’s glory with His angels before some the ones standing there would die. Muslims have also been (though not as long a time) struggling to keep their religion and them selves alive. It depends on the fervor of the people not the fact of a God supporting the killings unless the God they worship is a terrible being! When the Australian Aborigines and South American tribes have as great an impact on the world scene as the Jews, I’ll consider that comparison. Your comparison with the Muslims is valid, even tho I believe Islam to be an incorrect religion, because Islam’s original adherents are Ishmaelites and Edomites, who also are heirs to the Blessing of Abraham & Isaac, although they are outside to Covenant to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/59 "2010-06-25T13:48:41Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > But the OP asks _why you’re so sure_ of your beliefs, and I don’t think any of your answers, including this one, touch on this. That’s to say, rather than being “because of X, I believe in God”, your answers are of the form “because I believe in God, Y”. OK, but I also said that I was not sure of my belief. I simply believe in protons. And God. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/60 "2010-06-25T13:59:30Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I see design in the Cosmos. Thus, I think there’s a Designer. It’s a greater leap for me to believe that Mind developed from Mindless Matter in Motion than to believe that a Mega-Mind crafted it all. > > I see the Jews survive & thrive in spite of every attempt to oppress & destroy them. Therefore, I believe that the Mega-Mind is also the LORD God of Israel. > > While the Saga of Israel is compelling, it has not made itself relevant to the nations of the world & has indeed kept mostly to itself out of sheer necessity to maintain its survival. However, in the Person of Jesus, His Gospel and His Church, I see The LORD With a Message and a Heritage for all humanity. > > If you don’t see any of those things, OK. So is it that you believe that a weak and ineffective God is worth your devotion or that you believe in many gods all fighting over this one creation? If God is the “LORD God of Isreal” and that is why humanity has not been able to complete a genocide on the Jewish people, then is the god the the Christians and Muslims who are the most recent perpetrators of this act following a different god even though the beief systems are all built on the same foundations or is God too weak to actually control its creation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=4)