# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/61 "2010-06-25T14:01:06Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How can there be more than one God? If there were two gods, who created those? My statement is not a ploy. Your comment is not a rebuttal. Please try again. I don’t know if you are being deliberately obtuse or unintentionally obtuse, but giving you the benefit of the doubt let me clarify-in no way am I suggesting that there are two gods. I am saying that the fact that innocents suffer is not evidence that any supernatural entity that you(or anyone else) can conceive of is responsible for said suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/62 "2010-06-25T14:04:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I proceed from my belief there is a God (and a proton). When I observe behavior (by God or protons) that do not match my belief, I modify my theory so that my understanding of the nature of God (and protons) more nearly matches their true nature. The big difference, that you are continuing to deliberately ignore, is that hard evidence for the existence of protons is out there for you to personally examine-you may choose to sit back and be satisfied with just believing that they exist, but you know that you can back up your belief with fact if you really have to. Your god? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/63 "2010-06-25T14:06:36Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I proceed from my belief there is a God (and a proton). When I observe behavior (by God or protons) that do not match my belief, I modify my theory so that my understanding of the nature of God (and protons) more nearly matches their true nature. Please, do tell us the last time you directly observed the behavior of your deity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/64 "2010-06-25T14:09:16Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > OK, but I also said that I was not sure of my belief. I simply believe in protons. And God. Absolute bull. You cannot equate the two, because you _know_ that hard evidence for protons is out there for you to personally observe. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/65 "2010-06-25T14:29:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Absolute bull. > You cannot equate the two, because you _know_ that hard evidence for protons is out there for you to personally observe. Yes i can, and I do. I observed God’s handiwork this morning. I observed the effects of protons this morning. How is the belief in one thing I cannot directly observe different from the belief in another thing I cannot observe? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/66 "2010-06-25T14:31:49Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yes i can, and I do. > > I observed God’s handiwork this morning. I observed the effects of protons this morning. How is the belief in one thing I cannot directly observe different from the belief in another thing I cannot observe? Please tell us what you observed your deity doing. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/67 "2010-06-25T14:33:41Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > So is it that you believe that a weak and ineffective God is worth your devotion or that you believe in many gods all fighting over this one creation? > > If God is the “LORD God of Isreal” and that is why humanity has not been able to complete a genocide on the Jewish people, then is the god the the Christians and Muslims who are the most recent perpetrators of this act following a different god even though the beief systems are all built on the same foundations or is God too weak to actually control its creation? Many Christians (INO, IMO) did unfortunately persecute Jews. They never attempted genocide of them. Hitler was NOT operating from Christian impulses. Indeed, as hateful as some Catholic & Orthodox & Reformed authorities were towards Jews, they also believed the Jews must be kept in existence for Biblical reasons. Those persecuting Christians, also, did so out of a very faulty un-Christlike understanding of Scripture, and thus, were that era’s manifestation of The Whore of Babylon (Rev 17). The Muslims follow a prophet & a book that I do not regard as in any way valid and that I believe to be spiritually deceptive. And what don’t you understand about Christian understandings of free-will? Finally, could you diagram that last sentence for us? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/68 "2010-06-25T14:36:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please tell us what you observed your deity doing. I did not observe Him doing anything. I saw the results of His action. I did not see any protons doing anything. I saw the result of their action. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/69 "2010-06-25T14:49:20Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I did not observe Him doing anything. I saw the results of His action. I did not see any protons doing anything. I saw the result of their action. I put forth that what you observed is the results of the writings of Kri Orlandi, a hack author of alternative fiction who resides in the _real_ universe. I have just as much evidence for my theory as you do for yours-none. On the other hand, it offends me when you continue pretending that there is nothing more than belief involved when it comes to protons. Do you deny that there is hard evidence for the existence of protons? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/70 "2010-06-25T14:52:35Z")
I have not seen any hard evidence for the existence of protons. Neither am I willing to put in the years of study that would be required to understand the evidence I am told clearly points toward their existence. I have not seen any hard evidence for the existence of God. Neither am I willing to put in the years of study that would be required to understand the evidence I am told clearly points toward His existence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/71 "2010-06-25T14:54:22Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I have not seen any hard evidence for the existence of protons. Neither am I willing to put in the years of study that would be required to understand the evidence I am told clearly points toward their existence. > > I have not seen any hard evidence for the existence of God. Neither am I willing to put in the years of study that would be required to understand the evidence I am told clearly points toward His existence. It is deliberate, then. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/72 "2010-06-25T14:55:14Z")
Why do you believe in protons? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/73 "2010-06-25T15:00:40Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Why do you believe in protons? I don’t “believe in” protons, and I am not going to play this diversion game with you. If you want to pretend that there is an equal amount of evidence for the existence of gods and protons, and that finding evidence for either would be equally difficult, you are on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/74 "2010-06-25T15:29:20Z")
> [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#): > > [Inspired by this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=567757). Disclaimer: I don’t lurk here (in GD) much. I’m not that smart and I don’t have as much time as I wish. Plus my search skills suck. > > I just had a conversation with a (what I consider to be crazy ) friend of mine. They told me all about how God plants ‘evidence’ of an older universe. Red shifting is put in place to test the faithful. Blah blah blah. > > My question is this: Why? If God is magic, why can’t we all be like Gumby? Why does everything need to justify itself scientifically? In other words, why does God need to hide his magic behind what seems to be math logic? If we really are just life breathed into dust, why all all the justification? Why can’t we just be living ‘plastic’? Most of us are not that certain of our beliefs, most of us struggle with our faith on a regular basis but every once in a while you see or experience something reaffirms your faith (did you see that America made it to the elmination round of the world cup?) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/75 "2010-06-25T15:32:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Most of us are not that certain of our beliefs, most of us struggle with our faith on a regular basis but every once in a while you see or experience something reaffirms your faith (did you see that America made it to the elmination round of the world cup?) But you do understand that others observe events that reaffirm belief in _their_ religion, so as a validation measure it is pretty much useless. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/76 "2010-06-25T15:39:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t “believe in” protons, and I am not going to play this diversion game with you. If you want to pretend that there is an equal amount of evidence for the existence of gods and protons, and that finding evidence for either would be equally difficult, you are on your own. Yet oddly you expect me to play yours. It is almost as if you are insecure in your belief system. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/77 "2010-06-25T15:42:44Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’ve touched on this in other similar threads before, but I view science and religion (or perhaps generalized to philosophy so as to include atheists) as essentially orthogonal disciplines in a way of examining our reality the different aspects of our reality. Science answers questions like how, what, and when, and answers them with direct observation, experimentation, etc. These are the sorts of questions that, whether we can actually know them or not, have a definite provable answer. The other discipline answers questions like why, and is answered through thought, reasoning, experience, tradition, etc. In many cases, the kinds of questions answered here don’t have a demonstratable single answer. This is very similar to the arguments that Stephen Jay Gould makes in [Rocks of Ages](http://www.amazon.com/Rocks-Ages-Religion-Fullness-Contemporary/dp/0345430093), which has been very helpful to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/78 "2010-06-25T15:51:44Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yet oddly you expect me to play yours. It is almost as if you are insecure in your belief system. My “belief system”?? Rather than pretend that we haven’t covered this sterile ground far too many times to count, I’ll just let you pretend that you “won” this round. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/79 "2010-06-25T15:54:28Z")
If you want to believe that, I will not challenge your belief. If you wish to challenge mine, you know where I hang out. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/80 "2010-06-25T16:00:45Z")
Paul, if you want to say that you “believe” in protons, the same way you believe in god, I have to ask…at what point do you stop “believing” in reality and start accepting it? Do you “believe” in atoms, for instance? What about molecules? Cells? Simple organisms? Insects? Where is the line where observable things are something you stop “believing” in and start accepting? Because where ever that line is, you can move backwards, through observable evidence, and eventually get to protons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=5)