# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/81 "2010-06-25T16:20:10Z")
And perhaps eventually to God? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/82 "2010-06-25T16:31:36Z")
We can’t see magnetism, but we can see and test its effects. We perform repeatable experiments and generate peer-reviewed data which leads to the conclusion that magnetism exists and that the theory of magnetism explains the observable effects. The data drives the conclusions, which are the same regardless of what culture you’re in. What are the observable effects of a god? What is it about those effects that support the notion of YOUR god? Data proves magnetism with a high degree of certainty, not so much with God. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/83 "2010-06-25T16:41:33Z")
I know magnetism’s effects, I have no idea as to its cause. As a practical matter I use and count on magnetism every day. I do not pretend to understand it. Neither do I understand protons, but I accept they exist. Neither do I understand God, but I accept He exists. But of course many thing I know are true. I know there are insects, I have seen them. I know there are protozoa, I have seen them. Magnetism itself I have not seen. If there was an article tomorrow that said magnetism is really a flavor of gravity (or the reverse) I would not feel threatened. I accept magnetism as a handy tool for understanding the world. Same for God, if you were able to disprove His existence, I would not be put out too much. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/84 "2010-06-25T17:49:26Z")
It sounds like you are saying you rely on experts to provide information to you and you elect to believe or disbelieve what the experts tell you is true. How did you pick experts on theism over atheism? How did you pick what to believe or disbelieve between Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Tao, Sikh, and other religious experts around the world? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/85 "2010-06-26T01:22:29Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > It sounds like you are saying you rely on experts to provide information to you and you elect to believe or disbelieve what the experts tell you is true. Generally, I look for the solution that seems the most straight forward. But then again I also look for the most useful solution. I cannot admit that I have a system, or at least not one that I can explain. > [@Bearflag70](#): > > How did you pick experts on theism over atheism? > > How did you pick what to believe or disbelieve between Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Tao, Sikh, and other religious experts around the world? Atheism does not offer an explanation for some observations. We see creation and ask why it is, Atheism says “I do not know, but I do know it could not have been God.” I have not expressed a great preference between one flavor of Theism over an other. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/86 "2010-06-26T04:50:32Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Generally, I look for the solution that seems the most straight forward. But then again I also look for the most useful solution. I cannot admit that I have a system, or at least not one that I can explain. > > Atheism does not offer an explanation for some observations. We see creation and ask why it is, Atheism says “I do not know, but I do know it could not have been God.” > > I have not expressed a great preference between one flavor of Theism over an other. Why must there be an explanation for our observations? Can’t we just observe, wonder, explore, and accept the fact that we simply don’t know? Also, when we see the universe and ask why, atheism does not say, “I do not know, but I do know it could not have been God.” Atheism says, “I do not know, as there is insufficient evidence for me to know, including insufficient evidence that it is the work of God or any other supernatural explanation.” Rather than make a definitive statement _against_ god(s), many atheists would point to a lack of evidence and simply say the available evidence fails to support the conclusion. The burden of proof has not been met. Further, I know you have not expressed one god over another _in this thread_, but I assume you have picked one flavor of theism in your life and, if so, I was wondering how you picked one flavor over another. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/87 "2010-06-26T10:00:56Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Generally, I look for the solution that seems the most straight forward. But then again I also look for the most useful solution. I cannot admit that I have a system, or at least not one that I can explain. > > Atheism does not offer an explanation for some observations. We see creation and ask why it is, Atheism says “I do not know, but I do know it could not have been God.” > > I have not expressed a great preference between one flavor of Theism over an other. Atheism offers no solace for the most painful questions that haunt us. Theism offers simple solutions for those who need them. It is an emotional choice, no matter how well stated the argument. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/88 "2010-06-26T11:11:56Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > When the Australian Aborigines and South American tribes have as great an impact on the world scene as the Jews, I’ll consider that comparison. > > Your comparison with the Muslims is valid, even tho I believe Islam to be an incorrect religion, because Islam’s original adherents are Ishmaelites and Edomites, who also are heirs to the Blessing of Abraham & Isaac, although they are outside to Covenant to Israel. All said and done, it is just a human writing, and a belief in what some human was supposed to have done or said. One cannot state what is ‘the’ true religion, all religions make such a claim. They are all a religion and all are as true as another, because they are truly a religion. None can prove that their word is fron a God. It makes no sense to me that a Supreme being would only reveal himself to one or two people. This God started out talking directly to Adam and Eve( according to the writer of Genesis) then picked A man(Abraham) as head of his chosen people,because he was willing to kill his son! This same god was said to promise Abraham that his decendents would be as many as the stars in the heavens, Of course that could not happen, if it did most of them would starve to death for the earth could not support that many people. It is having difficulty doing that now, and Muslims, have a greater number than the Jewish people. There is no difference in believing that God spoke to Abraham (or anyone else)than if He sent an Angel to dictate a book to Muhammed. I guess I am a skeptic of anyone who says God spoke to them directly, or sent some angel to speak for Him!. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/89 "2010-06-26T13:36:23Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I like this reasoning: A, therefore green. There’s no proof, but it’s the only logical conclusion. You see where I’m going here. “Only logical conclusion?” Actually, if you re-read my post, you’ll see that I _explicitly stated_ that I am not sure of my beliefs, I _explicitly referred_ to my belief as more of an inclination, and summed my post up with an _explicit mention_ that what I presented isn’t proof. But uhm, yeah. You take to the stick to me, **DanBlather** , coz _LOL creationists!!111_ and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/90 "2010-06-26T14:08:17Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Atheism offers no solace for the most painful questions that haunt us. Theism offers simple solutions for those who need them. > > It is an emotional choice, no matter how well stated the argument. Is Atheism not an emotional choice? Do Atheists decide to become Atheists after hours in the library? It seems the Atheists hereabouts have some powerful emotions on the subject. True, true, I profess a casual form of Christianity, but I suppose that is simply the form of Theism most familiar to me. Had I been born here I suppose I would have been a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/91 "2010-06-26T14:24:41Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Is Atheism not an emotional choice? Do Atheists decide to become Atheists after hours in the library? It doesn’t take any study to be an atheist. In fact, being an atheist requires no thought or action at all. One can be an atheist by default and without it being an emotional choice. All one needs to do is _not_ adopt a belief in that for which there is insufficient evidence. Since we are all born without a belief or lacking belief in a creator, we are all atheists by default: there is no choice or action required to maintain the default position. Adopting a religion or becoming an atheist after having once adopted religion is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/92 "2010-06-27T00:32:38Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > You take to the stick to me, **DanBlather** , coz _LOL creationists!!111_ and all that. In many way I find Deists more frustrating than Creationists. The latter at least know what it is they believe. If you think there is a God of some sort, but you have no concept of what it does, or what it is, or what it’s limits are, or any predictable, measurable effects, I’m not sure what you get out of it. How is it different than there not being a God at all? Do you derive your morality from God even though he has no way of telling you what his views are? How can you be sure it’s not an evil God, or that there isn’t two of them, or a bazillion? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/93 "2010-06-27T01:57:44Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Since we are all born without a belief or lacking belief in a creator, we are all atheists by default: there is no choice or action required to maintain the default position. How remarkably simular to the Islamic doctrine that everyone is naturally a Muslim. (Hence a Christian ‘reverts’ to Islam, rather than ‘converts.’) So thinking people do not become Atheists? That is not the general line of reasoning Atheists give. I am of the opinion everyone is naturally an Atheist. Some of us outgrow it. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/94 "2010-06-27T03:14:34Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Is Atheism not an emotional choice? Do Atheists decide to become Atheists after hours in the library? It seems the Atheists hereabouts have some powerful emotions on the subject. > > True, true, I profess a casual form of Christianity, but I suppose that is simply the form of Theism most familiar to me. Had I been born here I suppose I would have been a Muslim. No, atheism is not an emotional choice, it is based on plain reasoning. I’m sorry if that sounds patronizing. Very few atheists would turn down a heavenly father, an afterlife, or the knowledge that everything was going to turn out just fine in the end. Atheists have emotional reasons to want these things to be true also, but they are entirely prevented from believing by the melancholy fact that one has to be a complete ignoramus to accept the worldviews espoused by the major religions. You joke about spending a few hours in a library, but all it takes to be an atheist is a little objective thought and industry. I was an agnostic (and an ignoramus, I guess) for most of my life, thinking that there must be some good reason for all the Christians that surrounded me to believe as they did. Once I decided that I should get to the bottom of it, I was appalled at the lack of credible evidence for any of their claims. The fact that you assume that atheism has emotional origins exposes a fundamental chasm between religious and non-religious worldviews. I have seen many religious apologists conclude that atheism is an irrelevant philosophy because it provides no hope and comfort, and _for that reason alone_ cannot be true. Most atheists resist allowing their emotions to influence their beliefs, while, in my opinion, the religious almost rely upon emotion to support their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/95 "2010-06-27T03:30:29Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > How remarkably simular to the Islamic doctrine that everyone is naturally a Muslim. (Hence a Christian ‘reverts’ to Islam, rather than ‘converts.’) > > So thinking people do not become Atheists? That is not the general line of reasoning Atheists give. > > I am of the opinion everyone is naturally an Atheist. Some of us outgrow it. I believe the same about Unicorns. None of us are born believing in them, but we outgrow that stage and the brightest among us become Unicornists. We see the evidence every day. That the universe exists, is proof of Unicorns. How could the universe come into existence without them? It is no mere coincidence that Unicorn and universe each begin with “U-N-I”. Think about it: “you” and “I”; could there be anything more magnificent? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/96 "2010-06-27T06:56:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The Non Sequitur Society-Because kangaroos jump. I had 2 tabs open and typed into the wrong one. It happens to the best of us. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/97 "2010-06-27T07:50:19Z")
Why am I so sure? Simple- I ain’t. I have all kinds of doubt. I had doubt when I was an atheist, too. Doubt is the only thing I’m sure of. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/98 "2010-06-27T11:34:48Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I have not seen any hard evidence for the existence of protons. Neither am I willing to put in the years of study that would be required to understand the evidence I am told clearly points toward their existence. > > I have not seen any hard evidence for the existence of God. Neither am I willing to put in the years of study that would be required to understand the evidence I am told clearly points toward His existence. That’s good, I like it, but I don’t think it will satisfy the non-believers. Myself, I have experienced God, stood in the presense of God, along with millions of others. But it is not enough for the non-believers, they are too fearful to accept any evidence, even when surrounded by it. From a position of fear, no amount of proof is sufficient, from a position of love, no proof is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/99 "2010-06-27T11:44:51Z")
I’m sure there have been thousands - nay, millions - who have been in a situation where all they had left as a plea for help was prayer. And it did them no good whatsoever, unless you god-worshippers think he took special attention of the prayer and gave them a consolation spot on his comfy cloud for all eternity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/100 "2010-06-27T12:51:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > That’s good, I like it, but I don’t think it will satisfy the non-believers. Myself, I have experienced God, stood in the presense of God, along with millions of others. But it is not enough for the non-believers, they are too fearful to accept any evidence, even when surrounded by it. It has nothing to do with fear; it has to do with the utter lack of such evidence. No; you haven’t “stood in the presence of God”; no one ever has, or ever will. > [@lekatt](#): > > From a position of fear, no amount of proof is sufficient, > from a position of love, no proof is necessary. That makes love into a defect, you know. As for fear; the fearful ones here are the believers. They are afraid of reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=6)