# Believers: Why are you so sure of your beliefs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965 "2010-06-21T07:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/141 "2010-06-28T14:39:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And if it has no measurable effect that humans can detect, except subjectively, what’s the difference between that and there being nothing to detect? Well, there is nothing wrong with subjective feelings, experiences, etc., since subjective is all there is, objective experiences just don’t exist, ala quantum mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/142 "2010-06-28T14:40:25Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Then how about responding to my last post? How about quoting my posts accurately. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/143 "2010-06-28T14:45:56Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Well, there is nothing wrong with subjective feelings, experiences, etc., since subjective is all there is, objective experiences just don’t exist, ala quantum mechanics. If you go to a magic show and you personally cannot figure out how the magician could do the act without resorting to actual magic, does this mean that the magician actually performed magic? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/144 "2010-06-28T14:46:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How about quoting my posts accurately. Tell me what I posted that was inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/145 "2010-06-28T14:48:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > How about quoting my posts accurately. Everything within the quote boxes look accurate to me. What exactly did **x-ray vision** change? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/146 "2010-06-28T14:48:47Z")
I respectfully request you provide **specific** evidence supporting your beliefs. You keep beating around the bush. Your prayers work? Miracles? Please explain in detail. > [@lekatt](#): > > That’s good, I like it, but I don’t think it will satisfy the non-believers. Myself, I have experienced God, stood in the presense of God, along with millions of others. But it is not enough for the non-believers, they are too fearful to accept any evidence, even when surrounded by it. > > From a position of fear, no amount of proof is sufficient, > from a position of love, no proof is necessary. > [@lekatt](#): > > And I am sure there have been millions whose prayers were answered. There are no cites for this, only opinions. > > I can think of many times my prayers were answered. > [@lekatt](#): > > All prayers are answered. It is not for me to say in what way they are answered, If it were people would pray to me. > [@lekatt](#): > > I guess the most obvious answer is that I saw it happen. I lived it, what more can I say. > [@lekatt](#): > > I can see many reasons, but why guess, I don’t know the mind of God. > > No one dies, they just go from one dimension to another. > [@lekatt](#): > > There is no lack of evidence for me, maybe others, but not for me. > [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t know the mind of God. I don’t know if prayer has no influence on his plan because I don’t know what His plan is. But I do know when I pray it works. [QUOTE=lekatt] When I pray miracles happened, I have seen it many, many times. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/147 "2010-06-28T15:37:13Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > You honestly think that is a more straightforward and useful explanation than ‘it’s all made up’? Yes, I do. Do you honestly believe that in the beginning there was nothing, then all that nothing exploded and made everything? Creation is a special, not reproducible event. Science does not deal well with unique events. Rather by definition, they cannot be tested. But honestly folks, I really have to bow out of this. My respects to you all but some things are working my way at the office and I have to work to improve my chances. As Ellen DeGeneris used to say, ‘Talk amongst yourselves.’ ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/148 "2010-06-28T15:52:28Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Do you honestly believe that in the beginning there was nothing, then all that nothing exploded and made everything? I prefer to admit I just don’t know how it all began rather than make up a creation story. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/149 "2010-06-28T16:58:49Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > I respectfully request you provide **specific** evidence supporting your beliefs. You keep beating around the bush. > > Your prayers work? Miracles? Please explain in detail. I have no bush to beat. I have given specific answers. It is my experience that when I pray, miracles happen. I have been in the presence of God, and know that He exists. Also know there is a spiritual dimension to life. All that is specific. Perhaps you need to read a book written by Dr. Wayne Dyer, called “When you believe, then you will see.” Things work backward from what most think they do. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/150 "2010-06-28T17:03:56Z")
**lekatt** , you accused me of not quoting your posts accurately. **Czarcasm** and I asked you to point out where I did that. Don’t make accusations if you’re not going to back them up. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/151 "2010-06-28T17:06:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have no bush to beat. I have given specific answers. It is my experience that when I pray, miracles happen. I have been in the presence of God, and know that He exists. Also know there is a spiritual dimension to life. All that is specific. > > Perhaps you need to read a book written by Dr. Wayne Dyer, called “When you believe, then you will see.” Things work backward from what most think they do. OK, then please be even more specific than that. What was your prayer? What miracles happened? What led you to believe your prayer caused the result? What happened in the presence of God? What did you witness or experience? What led you to believe it was God? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/152 "2010-06-28T19:45:01Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > OK, then please be even more specific than that. > > What was your prayer? What miracles happened? What led you to believe your prayer caused the result? > > What happened in the presence of God? What did you witness or experience? What led you to believe it was God? You can find the answers to those questions on my site and blog. It is best I not furnish my deepest personal experiences before this group of non-believers so they can be trashed and bashed. I think you understand. Why do I believe in God and other spiritual things, because of my near death experience, that is all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/153 "2010-06-28T19:53:24Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You can find the answers to those questions on my site and blog. It is best I not furnish my deepest personal experiences before this group of non-believers so they can be trashed and bashed. I think you understand. > > Why do I believe in God and other spiritual things, because of my near death experience, that is all. His “experience” consisted of going to bed, either being visited by(or dreamed of being visited by) a mysterious stranger who asked him if he wanted to live or die, then waking up the next morning. No visit to the hospital before. No visit to a doctor or hospital after. No professional diagnosis whatsoever. Thus, not a real “NDE”. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/154 "2010-06-28T19:55:20Z")
Not going to answer my posts, **lekatt**? It would be nice if you did since you made an accusation about me. > [@lekatt](#): > > Why do I believe in God and other spiritual things, because of my near death experience, that is all. It’s not all. You made claims that go beyond what you could know from just having a near death experience. How do you know that the near death experience you had is one you get to have again; what if one chance is all you get? How do you know that you get to go on forever? Maybe that next life you only get for a hundred years or ten minutes and the you’re poofed out of existence. How do you know that everyone gets to live forever and you’re not just one of the special few? How do you know that ALL prayers are answered? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/155 "2010-06-28T20:18:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > His “experience” consisted of going to bed, either being visited by(or dreamed of being visited by) a mysterious stranger who asked him if he wanted to live or die, then waking up the next morning. No visit to the hospital before. No visit to a doctor or hospital after. No professional diagnosis whatsoever. Thus, not a real “NDE”. You post only to provoke me. I think you would realized by now it is not going to happen. People can read my site and decide for themselves. I love you still. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/156 "2010-06-28T20:20:43Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Not going to answer my posts, **lekatt**? It would be nice if you did since you made an accusation about me. > It’s not all. You made claims that go beyond what you could know from just having a near death experience. How do you know that the near death experience you had is one you get to have again; what if one chance is all you get? How do you know that you get to go on forever? Maybe that next life you only get for a hundred years or ten minutes and the you’re poofed out of existence. How do you know that everyone gets to live forever and you’re not just one of the special few? How do you know that ALL prayers are answered? “Maybe” and “what if” questions are not good to answer, because the answer is always still unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/157 "2010-06-28T20:31:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > “Maybe” and “what if” questions are not good to answer, because the answer is always still unknown. And yet you continue to provide “facts” based on…what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/158 "2010-06-28T20:35:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You post only to provoke me. I think you would realized by now it is not going to happen. People can read my site and decide for themselves. I love you still. If you loved him you wouldn’t have accused him of trolling. Why not just explain how you know you were near death? > [@](#): > > “Maybe” and “what if” questions are not good to answer, because the answer is always still unknown. I didn’t ask you “maybe” and “what if” questions. I included those maybes and what ifs as possible explanations. How about backing up your claims? You again ignored showing me where I quoted your posts inaccurately. You don’t think it’s rude to accuse someone of doing something without backing it up or apologizing? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/159 "2010-06-28T20:37:41Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You post only to provoke me. I think you would realized by now it is not going to happen. People can read my site and decide for themselves. I love you still. Until you change your blog to reflect the claims you make here, it will directly support my claim, not yours. As long as you continue to make a claim that is not yours to make, I will point out is obvious to everyone else, and making the claim _then_ saying that you really don’t want to talk about it here will not excuse you. According to your blog, no medical professional before, during or after your experience declared you to be Near Death. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965/160 "2010-06-28T20:46:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I love you still. Which leads me to believe that your understanding of love is on par with your understanding of science. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-are-you-so-sure-of-your-beliefs/543965.md?page=9)