# BELIEVERS: why does God act so circuitously in freeing the Hebrews from Egypt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289 "2009-01-27T21:41:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/41 "2009-01-28T21:03:26Z")
This is my best answer to the OP’s question; I don’t claim it’s a _good_ answer: From reading the rest of the Bible, one gets the distinct impression that the Exodus was a Big Deal to the Hebrew people, a defining event in their history. From the Hebrew point of view at least, by doing what he did, God was not only delivering/looking out for his chosen people, he was doing so in a spectacular way that made clear, to both the Israelites themselves and to the neighboring peoples who were their potential enemies, that it was indeed the mighty power of God that delivered them, and not their own cleverness or luck or the mercy or ineptitude of the Egyptians. Even after that, they spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness before reaching the Promised Land, due to their failure to acknowledge God’s sovereignty and trust his leading, according to the Biblical narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/42 "2009-01-28T21:05:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The plagues in Exodus correspond to the judgments in Revelation and is a repeating theme. God sends multiple warnings as the wrath is coming. The time He didn’t, the flood, man was totally wicked and the whole creation has to be ‘reset’, as opposed to just overthrowing a oppressive power. The reason for dragging it out is to get as much repentance as possible before the total wrath of God is poured out. Particularly those newborn babies who died in the plagues and Deluge They were PARTICULARLY evil. I only hope God slowed their perception of time so that they would suffer longer. On the other hand, since they surely went to the fires of hell to suffer there for eternity, God may have decided not to bother. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/43 "2009-01-28T21:21:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Particularly those newborn babies who died in the plagues and Deluge They were PARTICULARLY evil. I only hope God slowed their perception of time so that they would suffer longer. On the other hand, since they surely went to the fires of hell to suffer there for eternity, God may have decided not to bother. The children, infants, unborn children would have been born so steeped in sins of their fathers that God taking them directly out was a divine act of mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/44 "2009-01-28T21:31:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The children, infants, unborn children would have been born so steeped in sins of their fathers that God taking them directly out was a divine act of mercy. Five questions: 1. Do you believe in hell? 2. If the answer to (2) is yes, is hell a material location whose inmates suffer physical pain (fire, worms eating their flesh, etc); a psychological state of being in which the inmates suffer mental torment; the utter cessation of all consciousness; or something else? 3. Did the babies who were murdered in this story go to to Hell? 4. If the answer to (3) is yes, why did the actions of their fathers cause them to merit this, since the children were obviously powerless to influence those actions one way or the other? 5. Also, if the answer to (3) is yes, why did God create these children knowing they would be sentence to an eternity of either physical or mental torment? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/45 "2009-01-28T21:46:24Z")
1. Do you believe in hell? Yes 2. If the answer to (2) is yes, is hell a material location whose inmates suffer physical pain (fire, worms eating their flesh, etc); a psychological state of being in which the inmates suffer mental torment; the utter cessation of all consciousness; or something else? Yes to 1,2 3. Did the babies who were murdered in this story go to to Hell? Humans - no, nephilum - very doubtful 4. If the answer to (3) is yes, why did the actions of their fathers cause them to merit this, since the children were obviously powerless to influence those actions one way or the other? n/a but We inherent the sins of our fathers because when you sin you sell yourself to sin, you become a slave to that sin. Your offspring is also owned, so your children start life in captivity. 5. Also, if the answer to (3) is yes, why did God create these children knowing they would be sentence to an eternity of either physical or mental torment? [/QUOTE] n/a ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/46 "2009-01-28T21:52:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > 1. If the answer to (3) is yes, why did the actions of their fathers cause them to merit this, since the children were obviously powerless to influence those actions one way or the other? > n/a but > We inherent the sins of our fathers because when you sin you sell yourself to sin, you become a slave to that sin. Your offspring is also owned, so your children start life in captivity. I think you mean “inherit.” “Inherent” is a related word, but not a verb. Anyway, so in your judgmnent it is reasonable to punish people for things they cannot possibly control? Is that a fair reading? I used to be this deceitful, abusive jerk, and I can think of several women who would be entirely justified in slapping me in the face if they ever see me again. Would they be entirely justified in slapping my kid as well? ETA: also, what became of the souls of the children killed in the Exodus story? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/47 "2009-01-28T22:09:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Anyway, so in your judgmnent it is reasonable to punish people for things they cannot possibly control? Is that a fair reading? I personally don’t like punishing the children for the sins of their fathers, but I understand why it is, the child is the very heart of the father. This form of punishment is part of the OT system of living under the law. Jesus redeemed us from the ‘curse of the law’, so we are no longer held accountable for the sins of our fathers once Jesus redeems us, and we live under grace. > [@](#): > > I used to be this deceitful, abusive jerk, and I can think of several women who would be entirely justified in slapping me in the face if they ever see me again. Would they be entirely justified in slapping my kid as well? Would they be justified? I don’t think so. But yes, spiritually your kids inherent your sins up till their conception. > [@](#): > > ETA: also, what became of the souls of the children killed in the Exodus story? I would assume by now the human children are with the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/48 "2009-01-28T22:18:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I personally don’t like punishing the children for the sins of their fathers, but I understand why it is, the child is the very heart of the father. That’s an interesting position. And by “interesting” I mean “gob-smackingly offensive and immoral.” By what logic is someone responsible for actions they cannot control, for actions that occurred before their birth, even? I’d rather go to jail myself than see my wife, baby sister, stepdaughter, or niece go to jail; their punishments would pain me more than my own. So if I commit a crime, should they be punished because that is what would really hurt me? > [@](#): > > I would assume by now the human children are with the Lord. So we should pre-emptively kill babies to assure that they go to Heaven, no? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/49 "2009-01-29T13:13:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s an interesting position. And by “interesting” I mean “gob-smackingly offensive and immoral.” > > By what logic is someone responsible for actions they cannot control, for actions that occurred before their birth, even? > > I’d rather go to jail myself than see my wife, baby sister, stepdaughter, or niece go to jail; their punishments would pain me more than my own. So if I commit a crime, should they be punished because that is what would really hurt me? 1 it would really hurt you if your children were punished for your crimes, if you deny that you deny your very heart and therefore deny yourself. 2 If you don’t like that system either then thank Jesus that He redeemed us from that. > [@](#): > > So we should pre-emptively kill babies to assure that they go to Heaven, no? God created that child for a reason, to serve Him, do you think it is man’s place to kill one of God’s servants? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/50 "2009-01-29T14:03:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I personally don’t like punishing the children for the sins of their fathers, but I understand why it is, the child is the very heart of the father. This form of punishment is part of the OT system of living under the law. Jesus redeemed us from the ‘curse of the law’, so we are no longer held accountable for the sins of our fathers once Jesus redeems us, and we live under grace. > Would they be justified? I don’t think so. But yes, spiritually your kids inherent your sins up till their conception. > > I would assume by now the human children are with the Lord. Deuteronomy 24:16 _The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin._ Wrong again kanicbird. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/51 "2009-01-29T14:23:39Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Deuteronomy 24:16 _The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin._ > > Wrong again kanicbird. Unless your name is David; > [@Samuel 12](#): > > 14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. > > 15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. > > 16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. > > 17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. > > 18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? Edit: [My source, since we’re in GD.](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%2012&version=9;) And I know it’s nothing new to find bits of The Bible that contradict itself, but the ‘sins of the father’ thing is certainly one aspect where it does. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/52 "2009-01-29T14:42:10Z")
Forgive the double post; KJV > [@Exodus 20:5](#): > > 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; [http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020;&version=9](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020;&version=9); > [@Numbers 14:18](#): > > The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. [Numbers 14; KJV - And all the congregation lifted up - Bible Gateway](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2014;&version=9); Just wanted to chuck in that it isn’t just kings who sleep around who curse their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/53 "2009-01-29T16:32:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > 1 it would really hurt you if your children were punished for your crimes, if you deny that you deny your very heart and therefore deny yourself. > 2 If you don’t like that system either then thank Jesus that He redeemed us from that. Of course it would bother me to see my children punished for my crimes. That does not make it JUST to punish my children for my crimes. It just means that any one who would do so is an ass. And saying Jesus redeemed us from that is system is idiotic. By your belief system, Jesus SET UP THE SYSTEM from which we need redemption. It’s like a man who beats his children with a belt for wetting the bed so hard they must be hospitalized, and some die, who then feels bad about it and beats himself with the belt to “redeem” them. This hypothetical father is no less abusive and evil. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/54 "2009-01-29T17:12:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The plagues in Exodus correspond to the judgments in Revelation and is a repeating theme. God sends multiple warnings as the wrath is coming. The time He didn’t, the flood, man was totally wicked and the whole creation has to be ‘reset’, as opposed to just overthrowing a oppressive power. The reason for dragging it out is to get as much repentance as possible before the total wrath of God is poured out. But the OT God was God of the Iraelites only. They were his cjosen people. He didn’y give a rats ass about anyone else as is shown again and again. It wasn’t til the NT that the rest of the world was in line for redemption. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/55 "2009-01-29T17:44:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > 1 it would really hurt you if your children were punished for your crimes, if you deny that you deny your very heart and therefore deny yourself. Even if children suffer after the parent is dead? > [@](#): > > 2 If you don’t like that system either then thank Jesus that He redeemed us from that. . No, he only redeems the ones who kiss his ass. The basic idea of original sin from Adam and Eve still remains. > [@](#): > > God created that child for a reason, to serve Him, do you think it is man’s place to kill one of God’s servants? Maybe God created the man to kill the child? Who are you to second guess God? Since God works in mysterious ways, you can’t say anything is for or against his will. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/56 "2009-01-29T18:41:49Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Deuteronomy 24:16 _The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin._ > > Wrong again kanicbird. This refers to, and is rules for man’s justice, as pointed out multiple times above children do suffer for the sins of their fathers (up to the 4th generation). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/57 "2009-01-29T18:47:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Even if children suffer after the parent is dead? Possibly, we really don’t have a clear understanding of what death is. > [@](#): > > . No, he only redeems the ones who kiss his ass. The basic idea of original sin from Adam and Eve still remains. While I would use different words, I’ll agree, we are designed to (to use your words), kiss His ass with all our heart, mind, soul. > [@](#): > > Maybe God created the man to kill the child? Who are you to second guess God? Since God works in mysterious ways, you can’t say anything is for or against his will. If it goes against His Word then yes I can say. God commands us to be fruitful and multiply, IIRC the 1st commandments that God ever gave man. Also ‘Choose life so that you and your children may live’ would define His will on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/58 "2009-01-29T18:50:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > …I’ll agree, we are designed to (to use your words), kiss His ass with all our heart, mind, soul. Well that’s it. The internet is over! Pack it up guys. See you all at the wrap party. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/59 "2009-01-29T18:51:02Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > But the OT God was God of the Iraelites only. They were his cjosen people. He didn’y give a rats ass about anyone else as is shown again and again. It wasn’t til the NT that the rest of the world was in line for redemption. God loves all His people, if the Egyptians were actually demons then OK. The Word states they will be judged by the law if they have it and be judged not by the law if they don’t. The pattern is important to notice, consistent from Exodus to Revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289/60 "2009-01-29T19:54:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God loves all His people, if the Egyptians were actually demons then OK. The Word states they will be judged by the law if they have it and be judged not by the law if they don’t. The pattern is important to notice, consistent from Exodus to Revelation. At this point I can only treat your responses as I would posts in a Harry Potter thread. But that’s okay. How could the entire population of Egyptians have been demons (by which I assume you Nephilim)? Was not the purpose of the Deluge to remove all the spawn of the “sons of God by the daughters of men”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/believers-why-does-god-act-so-circuitously-in-freeing-the-hebrews-from-egypt/483289.md?page=4)